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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 10, 2015 6:53:16 GMT -6
Heading to the Arizona Strip for patrol. Back on Sunday
AZ Ranger
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 10, 2015 6:56:14 GMT -6
AZ, is that for a stakeout of a popular club?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 7:05:50 GMT -6
Not sure why you think this is going out on a limb. Agree up to the point where you say "Reno did it deliberately". Substitute Benteen for Reno and then I'm in 100%. So you think Benteen ordered Reno back to the Reno/Benteen area? Where did you read that? Regards AZ Ranger It was at Benteen's recommendation that they retreat back to Reno Hill. There was no order from Reno.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 7:10:58 GMT -6
In fairness to him and his stated position, he was not a lone voice in suggesting this. Interesting thought pattern there Scarface. I think if you read Miles comments about Custer the man you could predict his evaluation. Do you really believe that the numbers of persons is a determining factor? Can you provide support for all the elements that you suggested that Miles knew or is this like your seasoned veterans comment? Thanks AZ Ranger Number of person's is not a determining factor, simply pointing out that he was not alone in his observations and commentary. I put weight in his experience of Indian warfare, knowledge of the army at time, officers, having riden the battlefield (as it was then) etc. He came to the same conclusions with regards the timbers as Benteen. Benteen's opinion, even after being pressed, was that it could have been defended.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 10, 2015 7:28:23 GMT -6
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 8:21:56 GMT -6
Steve: Then let me assure you that within the military it is a chargeable offense to make a derogatory statement of opinion about the President of the United States, State Governors, Members of Congress, and a rather lengthy laundry list of other public officials, under UCMJ and the LBH contemporary Articles of War.
There are limits placed upon your First Amendment rights when a member of the military. You may talk policy all you wish privately. You may speak on policy publicly when authorized to do so. What you may not do is defame.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 10, 2015 8:47:34 GMT -6
In fairness to him and his stated position, he was not a lone voice in suggesting this. Interesting thought pattern there Scarface. I think if you read Miles comments about Custer the man you could predict his evaluation. Do you really believe that the numbers of persons is a determining factor? Can you provide support for all the elements that you suggested that Miles knew or is this like your seasoned veterans comment? Thanks AZ Ranger Wiki piece on the organization of the 7th. 7th Cavalry organization The 7th Cavalry was created just after the American Civil War. Many men were veterans of the war, including most of the leading officers. A significant portion of the regiment had previously served four-and-a-half years at Ft. Riley, Kansas, during which time it fought one major engagement and numerous skirmishes, experiencing casualties of 36 killed and 27 wounded. Six other troopers had died of drowning and 51 from cholera epidemics. US 7th Cavalry guidon Half of the 7th Cavalry's companies had just returned from 18 months of constabulary duty in the Deep South, having been recalled to Fort Abraham Lincoln to reassemble the regiment for the campaign. About 20 percent of the troopers had been enlisted in the prior seven months (139 of an enlisted roll of 718), were only marginally trained, and had no combat or frontier experience. A sizable number of these recruits were immigrants from Ireland, England and Germany, just as many of the veteran troopers had been before their enlistments. Archaeological evidence suggests that many of these troopers were malnourished and in poor physical condition, despite being the best-equipped and supplied regiment in the army.[11][12] Of the 45 officers and 718 troopers then assigned to the 7th Cavalry (including a second lieutenant detached from the 20th Infantry and serving in Company L), 14 officers (including the regimental commander, Col. Samuel D. Sturgis) and 152 troopers did not accompany the 7th during the campaign. The ratio of troops detached for other duty (approximately 22%) was not unusual for an expedition of this size,[13] and part of the officer shortage was chronic, due to the Army's rigid seniority system: three of the regiment's 12 captains were permanently detached, and two had never served a day with the 7th since their appointment in July 1866.[note 1] Three second lieutenant vacancies (in E, H, and L Companies) were also unfilled.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 10, 2015 8:49:02 GMT -6
Oops..sorry. I was support AZ Rangers comment about CW vets in the 7th prior to the campsign.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 10, 2015 10:16:21 GMT -6
Shaw,
The 7th may have been loaded with ACW veterans upon formation in the 1860s, but was it in June 1876......??
WO
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 10:31:16 GMT -6
The reality of the matter, is that it does not matter.
The 7th Cavalry was not loaded with ACW vets in 1876. I don't know the exact number, but it would not surprise me if that number was under 25%.
If they were though, lets say 100% what possible difference would it make. Fighting Indians, and irregular conflict in general was far different than fighting a conventional "like type" army. The standard of training fell somewhere between abysmal and non-existent. In order to be effective training must be constant, innovative, repetitive, specific to the environment, and most of all supervised. You may be the best golfer in the world in 2012, but had you not been on the links since that time, you are not up to taking on Tiger Woods, or for that matter your local pro today. Training is like the bread in your bread box. If you don't consume it within a day or two, it starts to grow stale. Leave it long enough and it grows green with mold.
The only difference in training a green recruit, and the stale vet, is that the vet refreshes faster than the recruit can learn.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 10, 2015 11:33:10 GMT -6
I don’t know if this is correct or not but…I will give it a go;
Would the fact that they are fighting merciless Indians have something to do with how they broke? I think that in the ACW or any war around that time, if men surrendered then you at least have a chance of survival, but against Indians this would be a totally different ball game and they knew that they would be shown nothing but the tomahawk if the surrendered or not, even the wounded knew their fate was sealed, so I would think that being ACW vets was irrelevant.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 11:50:19 GMT -6
Ian being a veteran of yesterday, does not in any way mean you are ready for the challenges today presents. If you think today and tomorrow are just like yesterday, you have another think coming. Even if you should think the person you fight today, is going to fight the same way a month from now you have already lost that future battle.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 10, 2015 12:09:33 GMT -6
Interesting thought pattern there Scarface. I think if you read Miles comments about Custer the man you could predict his evaluation. Do you really believe that the numbers of persons is a determining factor? Can you provide support for all the elements that you suggested that Miles knew or is this like your seasoned veterans comment? Thanks AZ Ranger Wiki piece on the organization of the 7th. 7th Cavalry organization The 7th Cavalry was created just after the American Civil War. Many men were veterans of the war, including most of the leading officers. A significant portion of the regiment had previously served four-and-a-half years at Ft. Riley, Kansas, during which time it fought one major engagement and numerous skirmishes, experiencing casualties of 36 killed and 27 wounded. Six other troopers had died of drowning and 51 from cholera epidemics. US 7th Cavalry guidon Half of the 7th Cavalry's companies had just returned from 18 months of constabulary duty in the Deep South, having been recalled to Fort Abraham Lincoln to reassemble the regiment for the campaign. About 20 percent of the troopers had been enlisted in the prior seven months (139 of an enlisted roll of 718), were only marginally trained, and had no combat or frontier experience. A sizable number of these recruits were immigrants from Ireland, England and Germany, just as many of the veteran troopers had been before their enlistments. Archaeological evidence suggests that many of these troopers were malnourished and in poor physical condition, despite being the best-equipped and supplied regiment in the army.[11][12] Of the 45 officers and 718 troopers then assigned to the 7th Cavalry (including a second lieutenant detached from the 20th Infantry and serving in Company L), 14 officers (including the regimental commander, Col. Samuel D. Sturgis) and 152 troopers did not accompany the 7th during the campaign. The ratio of troops detached for other duty (approximately 22%) was not unusual for an expedition of this size,[13] and part of the officer shortage was chronic, due to the Army's rigid seniority system: three of the regiment's 12 captains were permanently detached, and two had never served a day with the 7th since their appointment in July 1866.[note 1] Three second lieutenant vacancies (in E, H, and L Companies) were also unfilled. Shaw, you need to look before you leap. First you need to see the average age of the troopers at the LBH. Then look at those enlisted in 1875 & 76. The answers are out there, now wipe that stuff off your shoes and start over.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 12:15:01 GMT -6
Az, This is from Benteen's RCOI testimony concerning the retreat from Weir Pt to Reno Hill, Q. During the return of the command from that position, state if you know, where Maj. Reno was, what he was doing and what orders he gave, if any? A. We were engaged in getting the line formed and there was not much time to swap pocket cutley. Q. When the line was returning where was he? Was he back selecting a position, or was he with the troops checking the advance of the Indians? A. I had left one company on the ridge with instructions to send their horses back dismounted, and to hold that ridge at all hazards. Mind you, I was looking after things probably more than it was my business or duty to do....I then sent Capt Godfrey's company back to another hill to check the Indians till we formed.... Q. Where was Maj Reno during this time, if you saw him? A. He was doing the best he could, I suppose; and every other man, everyone had enough to employ him. Q. Did you see Maj. Reno there or not? A. I saw him there. He came back with me and talked with me. As I said, I recommended a halt in order to check those Indians and then hunt for a better place to go afterwards. Q. Do you know whether Maj. Reno gave orders for the return of the command from that advanced position? A. I don't know that he did. If he gave any orders I did not hear them. Multiple statements from Edgerly concerning the retreat and defensive setup on Reno Hill; Q. What orders did Maj. Reno give to him (Weir), if any? A. I did not get more than a glimpse of him and he did not hear him say anything. On the advance to Weir Pt - "Capt Benteen's company was on top of a narrow bluff, Capt Weir's company was at right angles...a little to rear was Capt French and Capt Godfrey..." Q. State if at that point you saw Maj. Reno giving orders? A. I don't recollect seeing him there. Capt Godfrey - Q. Did you see Maj Reno about this time (on first arriving at Reno Hill)? A. I did. Q. What was he doing and what orders did he give? A. He gave me no instructions. Capt. Benteen gave me all my orders at that time. He seemed to be giving the commands. A. I don't remember by whose order we moved down. Q. Did the order come from Maj. Reno, either directly or through the usual channels? A. That I cannot recall - it didn't impress me at all. Q. State if you saw Maj. Reno while you were at that advanced position down stream. If, what was he doing, where did you see him and what orders did he give, if any? A. I don't remember to have seen him or to have heard him give any orders; he may have been there, but I don't remember it. Q. At the time of moving back, was Maj. Reno's command in view of your company while you were trying to hold the Indians in check? A. It was not. Based on this testimony and more, I am confident with my original statement that it was at "Benteen's recommendation that they retreat back to Reno Hill."
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 10, 2015 12:25:00 GMT -6
Chaps,
With all that went wrong on 25 June 1876, why are we wasting time discussing how the left wing, B and the mule train correctly ended up defending Reno Hill successfully until the arrival of Terry on 27 June 1876......?
WO
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