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Post by erkki on Nov 21, 2007 9:51:46 GMT -6
Just remembered this ('sweet'-'alkaline' finally clicked):
Usher L. Burdick Pamphlet Paris. MD National Reform Associates, 1937 "The Army Life of Charles ‘Chip’ Creighton.’ Folder 25 in Dustin Collection accession #81: "Our command under Benteen went about three miles...We struck a coolie and followed it about ½ mile when we reached a slough and watered our horses and filled our canteens. It was alkali and would take the hide off your tongue, but it was wet"
Seems to opt out the Hartung morass as the morass at which Benteen halted to water.
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Post by mwkeogh on Nov 22, 2007 1:02:33 GMT -6
Just remembered this ('sweet'-'alkaline' finally clicked): Usher L. Burdick Pamphlet Paris. MD National Reform Associates, 1937 "The Army Life of Charles ‘Chip’ Creighton.’ Folder 25 in Dustin Collection accession #81: "Our command under Benteen went about three miles...We struck a coolie and followed it about ½ mile when we reached a slough and watered our horses and filled our canteens. It was alkali and would take the hide off your tongue, but it was wet" Seems to opt out the Hartung morass as the morass at which Benteen halted to water. Good research here erkki. I wonder what trooper Creighton is referring to when he says "we went about 3 miles...." then struck a coolie and followed it about 1/2 a mile. 3 miles from what? and what coolie leads up to the morass? His physical descriptions could be an important clue in identifying the location of this particular morass (assuming that there was only one morass of course!) |
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Post by erkki on Nov 22, 2007 10:18:52 GMT -6
Wonderful how our sources tell everything except what we want to know!
However, the location of the morass as Knipe identified it for Camp (1.11 mi. from Camp's LT)--unless I'm reading the table of Camp mileages wrong, in which case it's 1.17 mi above the LT (Camp, Custer & the LBH, Appendix). That put the morass near the mouth of the South Fork, near the spot Hutchins identified on the field trip up Reno Creek a couple of years ago. Problem there is that the site to which we were led (based on pictures of the site Knipe showed Camp) is the wrong kind of ground for a morass. It is on a hillside sloping S/SE toward the mouth of the South Fork. Court has told me several times that old timers & maybe even Vern Smalley have said there never was a morass there until after the construction of Yellowtail dam. Frank Anders favored a morass site on the South Fork about a mile above its mouth.
The pictures are in Where Custer Fell, p. 29, and the Camp photo shows what looks like a marshy site where the road goes now. Even so, the location can't be seen from the north side of the North Fork--so how/why did Knipe tell Camp that the morass was at this point? Unless, of course, he found/joined the pack train there.
There is some interesting country going up and through the ledge of rock just north of the Camp morass site, but it is not what you'd call good horse country, i.e., I doubt that Knipe would have tried to head straight for the packs through this country. It would take more time than seems to be available. But Knipe did not ride 3.28 mi in 27 min. @ 7.5 mph (I think that was what was cited.)
Knipe was sent before the skirmish line was formed and passed/was passed by the Arikara pony captors. Godfrey saw most probably the same Indians with a small herd of horses. If Knipe first saw Benteen when horses were taking an unofficial drink at or near the Hartung morass, he had only about 3 mi to go and should have made it in abt 20 minutes, but he did not meet Benteen until Reno was getting ready to leave the valley. Only in an undated ms. published in the Marion, NC Citizen, March 18, 1933 does K say he spent some time avoiding Indians. That delayed his delivery of the message. For how long, who knows? but no conclusions about Benteen's malfeasance can be drawn from when and where Knipe left Custer and then met Benteen, since Benteen "was going at a proper rate of speed to keep the horses in good condition," although Edgerly and other officers wanted to go faster and were anxious to get there (Edgerly, RCOI).
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 22, 2007 11:10:09 GMT -6
erkki and keogh
Knipe might have shown Camp "a morass" but I doubt that he identified it as such. Knipe mentioned and confirmed that he saw Benteen WATERING, and I believe that is the place he indicated to Camp. Someone once said that since Knipe had passed the morass twice that day, he should have known where it was, but recall that Custer did not water at the morass on his trip down Ash Creek, so there is no particular reason why anyone should have noted it.
Benteen and those with him said that they "came upon" the morass, so that it was not necessarily a stand-out feature of the neighborhood. The pack mules pitched in because the horses were there and they smelled the water - much of Ash Creek was hardly worth the name, as there was no water in it of any kind to speak of.
Creighton's account might well pertain to the return to the main trail via the creek valley one up from South Fork - three miles down it and 1/2 mile down Ash Creek. The half mile is consistent with others' accounts of where the morass was in relation to after they reached the trail. There are any number of features that can be described as coulees along the north side of Ash Creek. They may not meet my definition of "coulee" any more than "morass" does, but there you go.
My opinion is that Benteen watered twice, and that it was at the second halt that Knipe saw him, since he could not have seen him at the morass if it was where I think it was. And he did join the pack train at "the watering place near the lone tepee" according to one of the packers. I do not quote sources since I just posted from the top of my head, and this is more of a discussion thread, from which I now take my leave.
Regards to all,
Gordie,
MC
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Post by elisabeth on Nov 22, 2007 11:32:32 GMT -6
Don't know if this helps -- and it's from the top of my head too (never the best place) -- but didn't DeRudio say he arrived late at Ford A because he'd stopped for water? This implies a further watering-place on a straight route between the Lone Tepee and Ford A.
(Sorry, can't check my books at the moment as they're all still packed up.)
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Post by blaque on Nov 23, 2007 6:18:15 GMT -6
But if Creighton did have a clear recollection of how bad the water tasted in Benteen’s morass (and liked to mention such minutiae), how is it possible that he forgot to mention the happy finding of the Hartung’s morass and its “pure water”? The problem about the two waterings, however likely they may be, is that every participant account fails to mention it (I think).
Gordie, when you say that Benteen probably watered twice, do you mean that he ordered two “official” halts to do so? Or is it your opinion that the second watering was just a non-ordered, hasty one, made by men who had had no occasion to water in the morass? And further to your last reference to the latter, do you suspect (as hinted by Mathey, McDougall and Benteen himself) that the morass was a few miles farther up Ash Creek, near the mouth of Valley One? I think Camp noticed that there was a spring about that place.
Elisabeth, without any previous look at the books, I think that DeRudio just boasted of the opposite, that he was among the first to cross Ford A, splashing water on Major Reno in the process.
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 23, 2007 8:50:49 GMT -6
blaque:
Most of the participants don't mention anything. One is left to extrapolate [scientific for dream up] from what they did say and to put everything into some semblance of sense and order. What results from such attempts depends on who is doing the putting and who is defining sense and order and etc etc etc....
Whether or not the second halt was officially ordered by Benteen, or was the result of somebody [we could blame Weir] ad hocing it, I do not pretend to know for a certainty. I accept this second watering in my own mind as an explanation for other observations as to timing and activities and sights and sounds, especially since I DO think that the morass so often spoken of does lie about where Mathey and McDougall said it was - the interesting thing about their evidence being that they each estimated its distance from a different point [the second halt, the divide and the river] and came up with similar locations.
And having thusly wetted my appetite [for a glass of water], I again take my leave.
Gordie,
MC
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Post by blaque on Nov 23, 2007 10:41:02 GMT -6
Thanks, Gordie. No doubt I'll be among the most avid readers of your book.
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Post by elisabeth on Nov 23, 2007 10:54:24 GMT -6
blaque,
Re DeRudio and watering, all I've got that's accessible to me at the moment is the Charles Mills paper on DeRudio from Arrow and Trooper. On p. 25: "DeRudio had to hurry to catch up, having stopped beyond the Lone Tepee to fill up his canteen". I've a feeling, though, that the full version probably comes from Custer in 76 -- as I recall, it's part of the same story as DeRudio splashing his horse into the river and Reno shouting "What are you trying to do? Drown me before I am killed?". I'd semi-disbelieved his watering story before, on the grounds that no-one had mentioned a watering-place in that area, but it's now beginning to sound feasible ... However, as always, I could be wrong!
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Post by mwkeogh on Nov 23, 2007 11:40:47 GMT -6
Wonderful how our sources tell everything except what we want to know! However, the location of the morass as Knipe identified it for Camp (1.11 mi. from Camp's LT)--unless I'm reading the table of Camp mileages wrong, in which case it's 1.17 mi above the LT ( Camp, Custer & the LBH, Appendix). That put the morass near the mouth of the South Fork, near the spot Hutchins identified on the field trip up Reno Creek a couple of years ago. Problem there is that the site to which we were led (based on pictures of the site Knipe showed Camp) is the wrong kind of ground for a morass. It is on a hillside sloping S/SE toward the mouth of the South Fork. Court has told me several times that old timers & maybe even Vern Smalley have said there never was a morass there until after the construction of Yellowtail dam. Frank Anders favored a morass site on the South Fork about a mile above its mouth. The pictures are in Where Custer Fell, p. 29, and the Camp photo shows what looks like a marshy site where the road goes now. Even so, the location can't be seen from the north side of the North Fork--so how/why did Knipe tell Camp that the morass was at this point? Unless, of course, he found/joined the pack train there. Good points Erkki. But what do you think of Bob Doran's model that places the lone tepee (the burning tepee referenced by Lt. Lee at the RCOI) at just east of the junction of north fork and Ash Creek. If he is correct about that location, then Camp's mileage figures of either 1.11 or 1.17 miles from that spot to where Kanipe first met Benteen would place him at the Hartung Morass, or just over a mile or so from where he crossed the north fork to enter onto the Flats. Doran claims that much of the confusion centered on the location of the lone tepee. He claims that there were actually 3 tepee locations referenced by different witness at different locations. The 1st he calls the Arickara Lone tepee, located along Ash Creek about 1 3/10 mile west of the south fork. Another lone tepee burial lodge, he claims, was spotted by Mitch Boyer and the Crows on their scout to the White Rocks area. It was almost due north of the Ree Lone tepee on the north side of Ash Creek. He references the research of Tom Bookwalter and Ray Mekita in their booklet, "The Search for the Lone Tepee". Then he locates the "Burning Tepee" about 8/10 of a mile SW of the Hartung Crossing of Ash Creek to the NW of the Big Flat. This is where he has Kanipe passing to meet up with Benteen. It was located on the left bank of the north fork of Ash Creek. It was at this location that Reno's Battalion was sent forward to the attack. Doran has Kanipe going at a rate of 4.2 mph, or about a walk. He claims his horse was more or less played out. This is an interesting point and it bears looking into more. It was Camp's impression that the Reno valley fight lasted about 30 minutes or so all told. If true, then it would seem to fit better timewise that he met Benteen at the Hartung Morass, otherwise Benteen would never have made it in time to his two horns of a dilemma location to witness the Reno retreat from the valley. |
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Post by mcaryf on Nov 25, 2007 3:40:54 GMT -6
Hi Gordie
The only person, with whom I have shared the papers and the ideas within them which you sent to me, has been Elisabeth and, as I recall, I asked you before doing that. In fact I think she has your chapter at the moment, as I did not think it right for me to copy it, although I did copy the Edgerly letter that you also kindly sent to me. You will know that I have an alternate theory, which I prefer, with respect to Benteen’s movement down Reno Creek being later so I do not subscribe to the idea of a second watering but I understand there is a case for it.
Regards
Mike
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Post by mcaryf on Nov 25, 2007 3:43:49 GMT -6
Hi Fred
I am in Spain on vacation with only occasional access to the Internet but you have started a time period of great interest to me so I will try to make the occasional comment. I am particularly interested in the source of this quote:
* LT Godfrey: the battalion stopped to water their horses again just after passing the “lone tepee.”
Did Godfrey use the word “again” or is this just him getting the Lone Tepee and the Morass the other way round and some commentator adjusting his words to fit in?
You have also included quite a lot of material from various sources that I think is extremely doubtful as follows:
Both Kuhlman and Darling were incorrect in saying that there were no witnesses to Custer’s orders to Benteen. Two of Benteen’s Battalion claimed to have heard his original orders from Custer – Edgerly and Windolph.
The claim that the hills/bluffs to which Benteen travelled were only 1.3 miles away is made by Darling who believed that Benteen headed West. Apart from Darling’s own reading of the terrain there is no evidence that Benteen went West, whilst there is substantial evidence that he went SW and this was in fact the conclusion of the RCOI.
I have to confess that I consider that historians/researchers, who attempt to assign moods to their subjects, are often clutching at straws to justify an otherwise poor theory. Roger Darling and John Gray typically do this – for example where is the evidence for this “Benteen appeared fine until Sharrow gave him Custer’s 2nd set of instructions; now he thought they were on a wild goose chase.”
“Gibson reaches a high promontory on the 3rd ridge (Ridge C) [Darling] and finds the upper reaches of the LBH valley empty.” Roger Darling is sadly mistaken in thinking that Gibson could see up the LBH from his Ridge C because a simple analysis of intervening ridge lines using Google Earth shows this is not possible. Indeed if Darling had properly researched his claim he would have found that even Gibson recognised that he had not seen up the LBH Valley in later life.
Talking about when Benteen met Boston, “[• Willert has this time at 2pm and says Boston did not stop, but hurried on. McDougall was about 2 1/2 miles back. {LBH Diary, p. 296}]” Clearly if Willert thought this was the case he missed the evidence that Boston started with Custer and went back when Reno separated and met with McDougall (see McDougall in Camp). Given that he has McDougall 2 1/2 miles back there really is not time for Boston to have ridden back and forwards again and met with Benteen at 2pm.
“* Kanipe remembered he was not in sight of the pack train when he met Benteen.” Kanipe actually told Camp that he met Benteen only a mile or so from where he met McDougall. As McDougall was at the back of the train it would seem to be pretty incredible that Kanipe was not actually close to the front of the train even if some aspect of the local terrain placed it out of sight during their actual meeting. One of the civilian packers who was at the front of the train claimed he saw Kanipe ride up whilst the front of the train was at the Morass. If Kanipe had previously met Benteen at another watering point much further down the trail then Benteen must have raced there at some huge speed to be that much ahead of the train which I think pretty well everybody agrees pulled into the Morass as his battalion was leaving it.
Several posters have suggested that it would not have been possible to hear the sound of Reno’s valley floor fight at the traditional Morass. I looked into the detail of the acoustics when I wrote my paper on Google and Benteen’s mission (I have an MA in Physical Sciences) and it would have been improbable that single shots could have been heard but sustained simultaneous firing should have been audible particularly where the sound might have been amplified by reflections off the bluffs. This would explain why some heard firing whilst others did not – I do not think Godfrey claimed that he did but certainly Windolph and Weir did so.
Regards
Mike
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 25, 2007 11:23:26 GMT -6
Mike:
Hola!! Que t'al amigo? I hope your holiday te gusta.
I was not castigating you for sharing with blaque, merely wondering aloud, since he had mentioned "talking" to you about the subject. By the way, that chapter on Benteen's Approach will be rewritten to include a few other alternative theories and some artifactual evidence which I had marked on my map [which you haven't seen], but not delineated in the narrative.
As you say, we disagree [heartily and with good grace] on the route Benteen took, and hence the timing of his advance. As Jacob Greene wrote once, and which I think sums up things very nicely: "If men will differ, then they will differ."
Best regards, and all good wishes for the upcoming holidays,
Gordie,
MC
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2007 19:31:24 GMT -6
Mike--
The full quote from my notes-- with the citation-- is as follows:
√ LT Godfrey: “… recalled that it was shortly after they passed the old camp (Lone Teepee site) that they again stopped to water their horses.” [Liddic, Vanishing Victory, p. 70, citing Stewart, The Field Diary of Lt. Edward S. Godfrey (Portland, OR: Champoeg Press, 1957), p. 11]
I cannot disagree with you about authors and their emotional assignments or, really, anything else you have put up here. But you have taken the bait and I am delighted you have done so. This is exactly what I would like to see on these threads, a churning of ideas. You, "erkki," "blaque," and "keogh" have done beautifully and have already put up more good information than I have seen on many other threads. The more holes you poke in the theories of others, the closer we may be able to get to what really happened.
Relax and enjoy your vacation; contribute when you can. Your opinions are very, very welcome.
Thanks and best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on Nov 26, 2007 3:36:08 GMT -6
As long as poking holes is OK ... how does Liddic derive an "again" from Godfrey's diary entry? As far as I can see, he doesn't mention any previous watering that day: just the scout, the return to the trail, and then, "soon after we passed the old village camp we watered our horses". Stewart adds a footnote saying: "Most accounts say that the horses were watered before the site of the old village was reached", so there's a choice here between deciding that Godfrey was wrong or that there were two watering halts -- but I can't find that Godfrey actually says there were two.
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