|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 17, 2015 10:03:28 GMT -6
What is funny is that persons that ride endurance competition events would be more likely to be able to duplicate it. We are looking at the primary mode of transportation of the day and they had lots of time to condition their horses.
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 17, 2015 10:47:04 GMT -6
Agree Fred. If he used them in Cedar it was only to peak around the corner, once the were about to enter and cross over MTC.
It is very hard to know for certain about local security measures, such as points and flankers. There were so routine that it is hardly worth mentioning, and only get a mention when that security element discovers something for the first time, or are themselves engaged at the onset of a general engagement. So common sense on when to use them and when not is to be assumed.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 17, 2015 13:20:52 GMT -6
I agree to attempt this ride again as an experiment just would not work, I mean how would you compare a well-cared for horse which has just got out of a horsebox to one that has just been riding throughout the night and had also been moving all morning. Simulations are well and good, but take a football goal kicker taking a pressure kick and missing, I bet the same kicker could take the same shot ten times and not miss if it was on a practice pitch.
Chuck/Fred/Steve; what are the chances of Custer using the Crows on one flank (left), the F Coy detail on another flank (right) along with F Coy at point and C Coy rear guard, that would mean that this column would have security front and back with early warning systems on both flanks.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by chris on Feb 17, 2015 17:46:59 GMT -6
You cannot replicate that ride, not at all, not a chance. In order to do so the conditions have to be the same. I hear it all the time from a fellow named Keith Herrin (on FB). Keith is the guy who runs the 7th Cavalry school/camp... whatever the hell it's called. He does other "authentic" rides, as well, and tries to make conditions as near-perfect as possible, but even he admits conditions can never be the same. The terrain is vastly different-- for riding-- today than it was in 1876. You have no one with Custer's drive pushing you; you can't put reasonably trained men-- 400 or so-- on the ground; there is no adrenaline-induced immediacy... absolutely impossible. So what do you have? You have some local clown who says it cannot be done and you have every single shred of historical and modern evidence that says not only can it be done, but that it was indeed done. Who do you believe? Again... you cannot replicate the situation!Best wishes, Fred. Fred, On replication. To make conditions the same, one would have to have similar climate/conditions - very warm (hot) temps and dusty equivalent ground. Tired horses and men too. Tough for me to understand it but I know squat about riding. Best, c.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Feb 17, 2015 18:02:10 GMT -6
You cannot replicate that ride, not at all, not a chance. In order to do so the conditions have to be the same. I hear it all the time from a fellow named Keith Herrin (on FB). Keith is the guy who runs the 7th Cavalry school/camp... whatever the hell it's called. He does other "authentic" rides, as well, and tries to make conditions as near-perfect as possible, but even he admits conditions can never be the same. The terrain is vastly different-- for riding-- today than it was in 1876. You have no one with Custer's drive pushing you; you can't put reasonably trained men-- 400 or so-- on the ground; there is no adrenaline-induced immediacy... absolutely impossible. So what do you have? You have some local clown who says it cannot be done and you have every single shred of historical and modern evidence that says not only can it be done, but that it was indeed done. Who do you believe? Again... you cannot replicate the situation!Best wishes, Fred. Fred, On replication. To make conditions the same, one would have to have similar climate/conditions - very warm (hot) temps and dusty equivalent ground. Tired horses and men too. Tough for me to understand it but I know squat about riding. Best, c. I doubt a responsible owner would let anyone get a horse into the type of condition the 7th's horses were in. Beth
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 18, 2015 6:11:38 GMT -6
Tough for me to understand it but I know squat about riding. I know little about riding, as well, but I don't use my own opinions when I discuss riding. I use those of people who know, people like Steve. I checked out Websites and hunted down historical evidence, the best being the Luce letter to DuBois. Luce was in the Seventh Cavalry and he was a veterinary officer. What more could you ask for? Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 18, 2015 6:16:54 GMT -6
I doubt a responsible owner would let anyone get a horse into the type of condition the 7th's horses were in. You will find many participant accounts that will disagree with you, Beth. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 18, 2015 7:06:01 GMT -6
I have avoided discussion of horses so far in that 95% of my experience was with Quarter Horses and I have not bitted one in nearly 20 years. The last time I spent any real time in the saddle was a 9hr day, spent on a working ranch in Newell, SD temp around 90 degrees. We had a normal lunch break and a number water breaks during the day. Both rider and gelding were beat at the end of the day, could the horse have given me more yeah, but not as much as he could 8hrs. earlier. I certainly will take whatever Steve says about the topic as much closer to gospel. The average cavalry horse had longer legs and a different gate than my normal ride.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by chris on Feb 18, 2015 12:30:47 GMT -6
Fred, Another question (sorry, thought I'd run out).
To replicate the ride down Reno Creek should be done with some 600 or so horses - something like: "who gets where and when." Good luck getting fences down etc...
Should anyone on a single horse, ride the route and claim their results as proof positive?
Bottom line - can't be replicated. Best, c.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 18, 2015 13:53:16 GMT -6
Fred, Another question (sorry, thought I'd run out). Chris, this is not an issue. Please stop worrying about it. This is why we are all here. I learn as well as answer. Exactly. Think about it. Custer had 225 men when he started out; Reno had 170 when they started out, scouts included. So that is 395 men on horseback. The weather was dry and hot which means that after 6,000-8,000 Indians preceded the troops, then camped there for about three or four days, there was little or no grass remaining and the ground was probably baked dry... sort of like a racetrack. In addition, the elevation dropped off which means the entire route was downhill, albeit gradually. Today you have fences, gates, tall grass, farming furrows, roads, tracks, grading, plowing, planting, grazing, irrigation (probably), and who knows what else, and some genius thinks by plodding down the valley he is going to replicate Custer's ride. To me, that mentality is well beyond stupid. The only question should be: was that speed possible for that distance and under the 1876-conditions? We know the speed is possible, that is a given. We are also told by innumerable sources-- one of the best of which (Steve Andrews) is right here-- the speed can be maintained rather easily for the distance in question. And since the terrain was reasonable to traverse, the conditions are fine for that speed. Maybe the best proof, however, is those who did it in 1876 said that's exactly what they did, exactly how they traveled. So John Gray, Clair, Justin/Rosebud, and all the other clowns who say it is impossible are simply left holding the burden of proof for their unprovable claims. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by chris on Feb 18, 2015 14:56:59 GMT -6
Fred, Another question (sorry, thought I'd run out). Chris, this is not an issue. Please stop worrying about it. This is why we are all here. I learn as well as answer. Exactly. Think about it. Custer had 225 men when he started out; Reno had 170 when they started out, scouts included. So that is 395 men on horseback. The weather was dry and hot which means that after 6,000-8,000 Indians preceded the troops, then camped there for about three or four days, there was little or no grass remaining and the ground was probably baked dry... sort of like a racetrack. In addition, the elevation dropped off which means the entire route was downhill, albeit gradually. Today you have fences, gates, tall grass, farming furrows, roads, tracks, grading, plowing, planting, grazing, irrigation (probably), and who knows what else, and some genius thinks by plodding down the valley he is going to replicate Custer's ride. To me, that mentality is well beyond stupid. The only question should be: was that speed possible for that distance and under the 1876-conditions? We know the speed is possible, that is a given. We are also told by innumerable sources-- one of the best of which (Steve Andrews) is right here-- the speed can be maintained rather easily for the distance in question. And since the terrain was reasonable to traverse, the conditions are fine for that speed. Maybe the best proof, however, is those who did it in 1876 said that's exactly what they did, exactly how they traveled. So John Gray, Clair, Justin/Rosebud, and all the other clowns who say it is impossible are simply left holding the burden of proof for their unprovable claims. Best wishes, Fred. Fred, Just so you don't think I'm as nuts as some (Tom) think. Custer at the divide had what - some 600 mounted troopers? I wasn't saying you need to have all of them going down Reno Creek (Is it Davis Creek now?) to replicate that trip. I understand the Benteen separation. Clarifying only. Best, c.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 18, 2015 15:07:43 GMT -6
Fred, do you have a picture of the gap from the back side. Not the pix in the book. How close is it to the turn around?
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 18, 2015 15:07:41 GMT -6
Custer at the divide had what - some 600 mounted troopers? I wasn't saying you need to have all of them going down Reno Creek (Is it Davis Creek now?) to replicate that trip. 655, total, on horseback (including scouts and civilians). In addition, 175 (supposedly) mules, plus an unknown number of extra horses, generally extras for the officers. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 18, 2015 19:18:08 GMT -6
Fred, do you have a picture of the gap from the back side.... How close is it to the turn around? Let's see... This picture was shot standing on Calhoun Hill. If you look closely on the right side of the picture, where you see the visitors center area, you will notice the road dip. That's the gap from Calhoun Hill. It is very noticeable, especially if you enlarge the photo. You can measure the distances on the maps in the book. I do not have it right at hand. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 19, 2015 4:39:50 GMT -6
Thank you I was about a 100 yards or so off, in a discussion with Chris. I thought it began near the other side of the turn out.
Regards, Tom
|
|