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Post by welshofficer on Feb 12, 2015 20:09:16 GMT -6
Beth,
"We are going to die mode" would definitely fall within hunted not hunter......
I would place it even later, after he returned to the cemetery area, but either way that means he was relaxed when he originally left Calhoun Hill. A different scenario to GAC being shot at Ford B.
Lee to Grant was very much a global passing of the baton, from gifted battlefield tactician to operational total warfare.
We know that it wasn't by 1876, because GAC had two relatives along for the ride as "combat tourists"...24 hour news channels in the modern era....?
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 12, 2015 20:55:41 GMT -6
Beth, "We are going to die mode" would definitely fall within hunted not hunter...... I would place it even later, after he returned to the cemetery area, but either way that means he was relaxed when he originally left Calhoun Hill. A different scenario to GAC being shot at Ford B. Lee to Grant was very much a global passing of the baton, from gifted battlefield tactician to operational total warfare. We know that it wasn't by 1876, because GAC had two relatives along for the ride as "combat tourists"...24 hour news channels in the modern era....? WO We're relatively close to the same point in time. Remember I am still trying to build new ideas of the battle in my head over old ones-- I really don't put much stock in the GAC being shot at Ford B because it just doesn't make sense to me when you consider everything that happened after. Combat tourists. I like that point but I don't think it's the same as 24 hour news since what you see on the news is always directed and controlled by someone else. Maybe if someday we have TV drones that you can personally control, it would be true combat tourism for everyone...I think that news and television have changed war just as much as Grant. Black and white print images, never are going to have the impact of full color action. Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 13, 2015 1:52:19 GMT -6
Beth,
I think the key issue was that GAC had not grasped the potential peril when he moved northwards from Calhoun Hill. We will never know the orders from GAC to Keogh, but the companies at the southern end of Battle Ridge were overwhelmed and that should not have happened.
We can argue the toss over whether GAC should have withdrawn eastwards or moved all 5 companies down into the valley north of the village, but getting wiped out high on the eastern bluffs was not clever or even competent.
Always prepare for what your enemy can do, not what you think they will do.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 3:12:49 GMT -6
Beth, I think the key issue was that GAC had not grasped the potential peril when he moved northwards from Calhoun Hill. We will never know the orders from GAC to Keogh, but the companies at the southern end of Battle Ridge were overwhelmed and that should not have happened. We can argue the toss over whether GAC should have withdrawn eastwards or moved all 5 companies down into the valley north of the village, but getting wiped out high on the eastern bluffs was not clever or even competent. Always prepare for what your enemy can do, not what you think they will do. WO The question to me seems to be was Custer the type of person who would willingly put his men in mortal danger. If not, I kind of assume as you said he didn't realize the potential peril, especially since he left Keogh behind. I find I am always torn between thinking he was just blind to the danger because he was looking and planning ahead, or things went bad so fast that no one had a real clue what was coming--or perhaps a mix of both. Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 13, 2015 3:31:57 GMT -6
Beth,
His entire mind set seems to have been directed at how the hostiles were going to disperse or scatter, not whether they were going to come up the eastern bluffs in large numbers. If he had directed himself towards the latter question, with regards to the size of the hostile village and the terrain, it's a different battle. As far as we are aware, GAC didn't even send a further messenger countermanding his order to direct the mule train away from the valley fight and up onto the eastern bluffs.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 3:44:20 GMT -6
Ignoring all the things Custer should have done up to this point in the battle. (better scouting, yadda yadda) What should Custer have done at this point of time based on what he actually was seeing and learning? I hope you don't think I am being confrontational, I really would like to know what you think should have happened.
I know that this is a question for a different place in the timeline, or in a 'what if' thread if it exists, I wonder what would have happened if Benteen had elected for the other horn of his dilemma and went into the valley.
Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 13, 2015 5:08:46 GMT -6
Beth,
Considerably less complacency and false sense of security....
I am not sure on which thread, but maybe Ian can help provide a link, but last year we went through the likely GAC recon towards Fords D. I remember painting the likely routes on the aerial photos.....
WO
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 5:43:35 GMT -6
Beth, I think the key issue was that GAC had not grasped the potential peril when he moved northwards from Calhoun Hill. We will never know the orders from GAC to Keogh, but the companies at the southern end of Battle Ridge were overwhelmed and that should not have happened. We can argue the toss over whether GAC should have withdrawn eastwards or moved all 5 companies down into the valley north of the village, but getting wiped out high on the eastern bluffs was not clever or even competent. Always prepare for what your enemy can do, not what you think they will do. WO The question to me seems to be was Custer the type of person who would willingly put his men in mortal danger. If not, I kind of assume as you said he didn't realize the potential peril, especially since he left Keogh behind. I find I am always torn between thinking he was just blind to the danger because he was looking and planning ahead, or things went bad so fast that no one had a real clue what was coming--or perhaps a mix of both. Beth I think he was totally ignorant to the developing situation and tidal wave that was coming his way. No other explanation for separately from Keogh and moving to Ford D. Once separated from Keogh, whatever slim chance they had was gone.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 13, 2015 6:11:59 GMT -6
Justin, is this the thread? linkBTW: just want to say that Wales will beat the Scots in your next six nations game, as I cannot see any team coached by that New Zealander Gatland and that English man Edwards losing twice on the run . Ian.
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 6:24:28 GMT -6
Justin, is this the thread? linkBTW: just want to say that Wales will beat the Scots in your next six nations game, as I cannot see any team coached by that New Zealander Gatland and that English man Edwards losing twice on the run . Ian. Thanks for the link Ian! Beth
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Post by Colt45 on Feb 13, 2015 7:54:56 GMT -6
Ignoring all the things Custer should have done up to this point in the battle. (better scouting, yadda yadda) What should Custer have done at this point of time based on what he actually was seeing and learning? I hope you don't think I am being confrontational, I really would like to know what you think should have happened. I know that this is a question for a different place in the timeline, or in a 'what if' thread if it exists, I wonder what would have happened if Benteen had elected for the other horn of his dilemma and went into the valley. Beth Most likely Benteen would have found himself in the valley and most of Reno's beaten battalion up on Reno Hill. It all depends on timing. Using Fred's timelines I would say he would have pretty much been alone on the valley floor, with Reno's men up the hill. If the timing were such that Benteen goes into the valley while Reno is still in the timber, then there is a chance the hostiles would withdraw since some of them would be caught between the two forces. Equally possible is the hostiles between Reno and Benteen charge Benteen, and more hostiles come from the village to engage both forces. Meanwhile the pack train is still east of the river with only 1 company for protection. I wouldn't imagine McDougall would cross at Ford A if he sees Benteen hotly engaged by a larger force, but who knows, maybe he would. I would not if I were in command of the train. If Benteen decides to go into the valley, he must know he's in for a tough time since he stated at the RCOI he thought the entire command was in the valley and that it had been whipped. I believe Benteen could see only the remnants of Reno's men in the valley and that the breakout was already underway. That, and the Crows signalling to go up the bluffs made his decision not to go into the valley.
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Post by dave on Feb 13, 2015 9:59:31 GMT -6
Beth Shiloh the first truly bloody conflict was in the west and not well covered by the press and no know photos of any kind were taken after the battle. Alexander Gardner's graphic photos of Antietam coupled with the growing casualty lists in the papers took the bloom off the lily of glorious war. Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 13, 2015 10:56:13 GMT -6
Dave, glorious war, a term thrown around by many. Most of those who have been involved, rarely consider it so. Patton and others, writers associate with the term rarely dig deep enough into the individuals to find out what they really feel about war. Grant and Sherman, were proponents of "Total War" only because they wanted to bring about the end of the bloodshed as quickly as possible. Truman ordered the dropping of a horrific weapon, to bring about the end of the bloodshed. To a much lesser degree the "Surge" in Iraq was designed to do the same thing. We as country have allowed our youth and treasure in such places as Korea and Vietnam to be squandered. We may be on the verge of another mismanaged war with ISIS. Lincoln learned a valuable lesson in the ACW politics and press be damned, if you are in a war, you had better be in it to win it. Turn it over to the professionals, get it done, less lives will be lost, less money spent.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Feb 13, 2015 11:46:25 GMT -6
Tom I could not agree anymore with your statement. At the time of the War, particularly in the South, there was great excitement about war and going into battle to impress friends, colleagues and fair members of the other sex. It was seen as an adventure without much thought of being wounded, maimed or killed. Many letters and diaries from the 1861-62 years express these thoughts. In Mississippi many men where chided into a regiment by the young ladies and other men. Regards Dave
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 13, 2015 12:09:59 GMT -6
Even though it was a bit hyped up, the early scenes in GWTW show this. Rhett Butler is the realist while most other southern gentlemen think the war will be a cakewalk. Men like Grant and Sherman were better grounded from the beginning even though few saw the scale the war would reach in the sense of size of armies and span of operations. Except for Scott, but McClellan made sure he was shuffled to the sidelines,
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