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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 15:41:26 GMT -6
As always I would recommend reading Fred's original post, and take it from there. Things have changed since that post: I wasn't aware of the gap until a couple years later and like Chuck very shrewdly pointed out, that was a game-changer. Also, I wasn't aware of the Harrington location either at that time. The book changes a number of things, including the comment about the "administrative" position. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 16:03:49 GMT -6
Montrose thinks Keogh gets a free ride and Scarface seems to thinks he is a gallant cavalier. Maybe someone can convince us one way or the other. It is always worth my time. I am sort of ambivalent about it, to be honest. I think GAC left him in a completely untenable position, but that Keogh's actions made it worse. Then again, it is quite possible Keogh's initial dispositions were ordered by Custer... we will never know. To me, the cavalry's life-blood is its mobility. Sacrificing that spells doom, and Keogh sacrificed it. My issue with Keogh was that he was spread out way too far and did not have the mobility to compensate. This was exacerbated when he sent Harrington into that ditch. Keogh was a senior officer in that regiment and to me, he should have maintained his mobility and if, as I suspect-- and write-- that he was there to await Benteen's arrival, I find nothing wrong with keeping his command together, maintaining his mobility, and back away as odds and the situation became increasingly untenable. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 16:17:08 GMT -6
I'm squinting and think there are 4 markers in that photo. From your reasearch - are they identified? Chris, I cannot make out four, but there are five markers in the swale area: 160 through 164. I have played around with the markers and find all five are probably legit, meaning five troopers died there. Only one, Charles Graham of L Company, was ID'ed. I place him at 160. In all likelihood, the other four would reasonably be 1 man from C Company and 3 others from L, since those were the only companies moving through that area. I Company would have been slightly more north. I have put names with markers 161-164, but they are arbitrary. If I listed the names here, some idiot from next door will probably take it as "Fred's Gospel" and I would be pilloried for that as well. It is a lot of fun playing with them, and I have gone through the entire list of markers, eliminated the spurious all the way down to 210, and in a separate little study attached names to all of them. If you have the book, you will see exactly where I believe the correct markers should be located. Count them up in the four maps and you will get 210. That is where those men fell. That is an added little bonus in the book, one I do not mention anywhere. I am waiting to see if anyone picks up on it. So far, no one has. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 16:19:19 GMT -6
Fred, I'm thinking markers 160 to 164 - maybe? Right square on the money, Chris. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 16:21:32 GMT -6
I find this and the Calhoun sections of battle the most confusing. Fred's book has helped greatly but I still can't say I have it down pat. I'll appreciate any discussion offered. Just ask your questions, Beth. Ask away. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 16:26:13 GMT -6
... but then I grasped the "gap" from Fred - bingo! Chris, To me, the gap is the most significant thing in that whole area of fighting. The fact it has been overlooked all these years astonishes me, especially by military men. In their defense, however, these issues were probably never really discussed as we do now, and by the time they were, the gap was no longer there, having been almost completely filled in by the road work. I think the pictures in the book point that out very clearly. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 11, 2015 16:27:34 GMT -6
Since Chris and I began talking he has had a huge interest in the markers and enlightened me a great deal. The ones that would be under the main building drive me nuts, I will never understand why there are not metal markers in the floor. What the heck numbers would they be?
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Feb 11, 2015 16:32:24 GMT -6
Please know I know that Fred covers it well in his book but I am the type of person who sometimes needs to work hard at getting the old ideas out of my head and new ones in, especially when I am experiencing the extremely frustrating brain fog like I've had for the past few days. Your probably are not going to believe that I've read Fred's book twice with my questions.
Did the battle go Calhoun's unit falling survivors going towards Keogh, Keogh sector falling then survivors running towards LSH? Did all of those things pretty much happen simultaneously?
Sometimes I wish books could be animated...
Would you rather I take my questions to a different point on the timeline.
A question about Keogh, do most people consider him a soldier of fortune( though I know that no fortunes were made in the US Army then) or was he sort of a military junkie--someone who felt more comfortable living a military life than a civilian life.
Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 11, 2015 16:32:31 GMT -6
Fred, it is a crime that the clown next door drove you nuts, because this area of the battle as well as a few others are obviously not as understood as Reno/Benteen. Not that we can nail down all, suppositions here are far more interesting.
Regards, Tom
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 16:48:00 GMT -6
Since Chris and I began talking he has had a huge interest in the markers and enlightened me a great deal. The ones that would be under the main building drive me nuts, I will never understand why there are not metal markers in the floor. What the heck numbers would they be? Regards, Tom As Tom and others know, the markers have always bugged me once I found out some are spurious, some missing, others mislocated and some moved and replaced - that sort of thing. Many folks have written about the LBH and use the markers to determine their conclusion(s). I've always contended one should study the best info available about the markers first - then go on. Tom, Under the main building may not be quite correct but I believe at least 5 or 6 were moved during the construction - from that area. Enough about markers. Is it dead? Yes. OK hit it again! Best, c.
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Post by Beth on Feb 11, 2015 16:49:53 GMT -6
I find this and the Calhoun sections of battle the most confusing. Fred's book has helped greatly but I still can't say I have it down pat. I'll appreciate any discussion offered. Just ask your questions, Beth. Ask away. Best wishes, Fred. I will, bear with me because some might be very basic. I will go with a statement you made a several time since I've been on the board about Keogh's postion not making sense especially where his body was found (Or am I mischaracterizing it). Do you think that Keogh started somewhere on higher ground so he could see Benteen approach and then had to redeploy to plug gaps as Indians start to approach through coulees and ravines? I know from your map that large number of the bodies are right at the head of the gap (which I believe should be named after Fred) was that because he kept throwing his resources into that area, or because they were taken by surprise? Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 11, 2015 16:54:58 GMT -6
Chris my point is, if markers were located there they should be marked in some way. I guess what I am saying is there was fighting all around that hill, on all down slopes. Not just on one side.
Regards, Tom
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 16:56:32 GMT -6
Chris my point is, if markers were located there they should be marked in some way. I guess what I am saying is there was fighting all around that hill, on all down slopes. Not just on one side. Regards, Tom Gotcha. Best, c.
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Post by Beth on Feb 11, 2015 17:05:30 GMT -6
Fred, it is a crime that the clown next door drove you nuts, because this area of the battle as well as a few others are obviously not as understood as Reno/Benteen. Not that we can nail down all, suppositions here are far more interesting. Regards, Tom I totally agree. The majority of the time we seem to discuss Reno in the valley and Benteen/Reno at the hill. I appreciate the discussion but suspect that the reason it has more focus is because there were survivors each with their own story. Anything beyond when Martini left can only be surmised through forensic archaelogy combined with an understanding of military tactics. Beth I forgot to add Indian testimony.
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 17:06:42 GMT -6
I'm squinting and think there are 4 markers in that photo. From your reasearch - are they identified? ... That is an added little bonus in the book, one I do not mention anywhere. I am waiting to see if anyone picks up on it. So far, no one has. Best wishes, Fred. Are you sure? Best, c.
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