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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2007 16:14:54 GMT -6
As Custer passed beyond what would later be called Reno Hill, the sound of gunfire in the valley became more intense. His excited command, moving very rapidly, was reported to have passed him. He cautioned them and when he looked ahead he spotted a high promontory ahead with a coulee system off to its right. He moved his command to its head. This is north of Reno Hill approaching Weir Peaks and its "loaf" (on the right). Cedar Coulee begins off to the right side of the picture.After viewing part of the Reno fight in the valley, Custer moved his impatient command... ... and started down the coulee system to get to the other side of the village. The generally accepted route was down Cedar Coulee... (the command would be moving from right to left) ... though some disagree and present solid arguments for a different route. The troops moved rapidly down the coulee... ... and were soon able to see the broad coulee that led to the river, and the heights beyond. They kept moving, entering Medicine Tail Coulee. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bubbabod on Nov 9, 2007 16:57:43 GMT -6
Fred, totally cool presentation. Let's see more of it. When you've got the pictures, use them!
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Post by gocav76 on Nov 9, 2007 17:00:15 GMT -6
Do you have a pic from where Curly said he watched the battle?
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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2007 17:08:36 GMT -6
Do you have a pic from where Curly said he watched the battle? gocav76-- From the far hills to the east (no), or from the Weir Point area (yes)? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mwkeogh on Nov 9, 2007 19:19:04 GMT -6
Do you have a pic from where Curly said he watched the battle? gocav76-- From the far hills to the east (no), or from the Weir Point area (yes)? Best wishes, Fred. Great pictures Fred. It gives a great perspective to those who have never been out to LBH. Keep 'em coming.
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Post by fred on Nov 9, 2007 19:53:56 GMT -6
Thanks, to all of you. There will be more.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bubbabod on Nov 9, 2007 22:41:06 GMT -6
Keough, the outstanding pictures Fred posted were taken at Ft. Phil Kearny during the Bozeman Trail/Ft. Phil Kearny Days this past June. For anyone who's never had the chance to attend, it's well worth the time. Keep them coming, Freddie.
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 20:01:10 GMT -6
Just for some information, I came across the top picture and just added it. It gives a very good idea of what Custer and his troops saw ahead of them and how-- quite possibly-- the terrain guided and funneled their movements. Also, please remember, the terrain between the peaks and the loaf-- through which the road goes-- was probably a lot higher in 1876. I am sure it must have been dug out for the road.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by erkki on Dec 8, 2007 11:58:26 GMT -6
Squaw Creek with its potential hostages is visible from the bluffs above the DeWolf marker--that hill where DeRudio probably sighted somebody. From there to Weir, Squaw Creek looks accessible from what we now call Ford B. Even if you don't accept the idea that GAC was after hostages this early in the game, it still looks like you can get to the north end of the villages, and you can't really see anything west of Ford B until within 1/2-3/4 of a mile of it...maybe not even then. The straight route to the objective is not down Cedar Coulee to MTC. Cedar Coulee does not look like a good route for cavalry--narrow and steep sided. The Arikara pony captors and Thompson say GAC's troops were disappearing over the ridge (Weir Peaks in my opinion), not down the draw. The Crow said down the draw after he was over Weir. Frank Bethune indicated that a/the route was about halfway down the eastern end of Weir but above Cedar Coulee. Talk with the owner of the property brought out that riding down MTC from Cedar Coulee involves crossing the creek several times. It was a wet spring so the ground would be soggy even if there were no running water. Look at the condition of the ground around the NPS roadway bridge. Now that I think of it, you could make a case for GAC delaying 45 minutes in MTC trying to get his troops out of the muck, but I cheerfully admit to having a warped mind. Jim Court spoke of one investigator (military I think) who believed that the only place to cross to the east/northeast bank of MTC was more than a mile upstream. Even so, I think GAC took the most direct route toward Ford B. The property owner seemed to agree that it is a more logical route--though what he actually said was that Custer would have followed the animal trails, implying that the animals/buffalo would not be fool enough to wallow around in the muck in the MTC bottom. Dustin followed this more westerly route parallel to the river which brought him out a scant mile above the ford, facing Luce, about at the gully NPS has now marked as "North MTC". Bethune told him afterward that this was the route GAC took. OK--it's 2nd-3rd-4th hand info, but I am willing to buy it because Bethune was Goes Ahead's brother-in-law and Goes Ahead was with the three Crows on that bluff just above Ford B, where they were seen by Bobtail Horse and Joseph White Cow Bull (not the White Bull who volunteered to take the blame for killing Custer--keep in mind that Fox that these two rolled into one on p. 144). So, now, to get where I am going. The distance from Weir to the bottom facing Luce is a scant mile. The troops went at a run. My informant says he could ride that route in 5 minutes--call it 10 at the most for a column of cavalry. Pennington suggested 15 minutes from Weir to Ford B. GAC was at Ford B within 10-15 minutes of the formation of the skirmish line--call it 2:40 official time using Wallace's estimates. [OK I'll go write up what's wrong with 3:18.--put it under June 25 Re:Divide to Ford A - A Discussion]
At 2:40 GAC can see a) what he thinks is Reno keeping all the warriors occupied, although b) most of the warriors have gone to the western bluffs to get their ponies, some of which are up to five miles away, and they won't be coming back in any numbers for another 20-25 minutes, c) GAC has not hit the end of the village because the Oglala, Sans Arc, Minneconjou circles are there, and d) now he can see that Squaw Creek is still about a mile farther north.
Fred, old buddy, why are you sending George up on Nye-Cartwright? He's already detailed Keogh's battalion to start dealing with the Indians up there and he himself heads up toward Calhoun Hill, passing Greasy Grass Ridge from which there is an excellent view of the entire north end. Though you cannot see Ford B from there, heck, Reno's got all the warriors busy down at his end and nobody much is ready to fight down below him in the valley, at least none that he can see on account of as how they are mostly out west looking for their horses. It doesn't look any different when GAC gets up to Calhoun Hill which is so marginally lower than NC (7 feet?) as to make no never mind. So GAC tells Keogh to a) keep those Indians off his flank and b) keep an eye out for Benteen, heads for the Cheyenne fords, and rides into history.
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Nov 5, 2008 22:09:33 GMT -6
I have this picture of Cedar Coulee. Looking north down the creek, SharpShootersRidge just to the right and Weir Point to the left, and Reno Hill behind. Most of the junipers are dead now, I am not sure if the fire took them out or what. Martin, Knipe, and Curley all gave testomony that the route continues down a "ravine" (Cedar Creek) then turns onto a "Dry Creek" ( Medicine Tail Coulee). Walter Camp noted,"His (Martin's) discription of route agrees with Curly and Knipe exactly." Custer had traveled near Reno Hill and to Sharpshooters Ridge before turning down into Cedar Coulee and then left into MTC. Pvt. Thompson said "On the left side of the river the country was flat, on the right it was very rough and broken: there was a low range of hills cut up by numerous intersecting ravines. It was Custer's intention to keep out of sight of the Indians until he had time to cross over the river, three miles below.....At this time our horses were in a trot. At our right, and on a slight elevation (SSR), sat Gen. Custer and his brother Tom reviewing the companies as they passed by......we were ordered to form into sets of fours which would make us a more solid and compact body." There are multiple maps that show the trail going down the left side of the coulee and a couple of maps that show on the right side of the coulee. I very much doubt that Custer stayed atop of Sharpshooters Ridge, for his wish to stay out of view. Look at the picture and the coulee could be manuvered on either side.
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Post by clw on Nov 6, 2008 8:53:28 GMT -6
Thanks for the very informative photo of Cedar Coolee. The left looks like better ground and lower for purposes of concealment.
Fantasitic shot from Reno Hill!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Nov 6, 2008 9:24:17 GMT -6
Great photos, but to those unfamiliar with the land without benefit of telescopic lens, these can be deceiving.
That said, if you look at the first photo facing north, this is not what cavalry officers dream about as the ideal ground upon which to perform, either on offense or defense.
Given the lovely flat land just to the west that, coincidently and of passing moment, also features the village of the enemy with its huge herd of mounts, one wonders what masochistic idiocy would prompt putters by the 7th into that miasma of numerous ambush sites and concealments while riders stay on high ground to move efficiently?
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Post by bc on Nov 6, 2008 13:19:33 GMT -6
GS, you quote Peter Thompson quite a bit. I haven't read his story but heard recently on the boards that Thompson states he sighted Custer scouting (alone?) along the banks of the LBH at the MTC/Ford B area while the rest of the troops were stopped back up MTC. Do you have any faith in what he is saying? Just wondering because that would indicate to me a lot about Custer's mindset, intent, and actions there after.
You might refresh my recollection regarding whether the junipers/cedars were in cedar coulee on 6-25-76 or was it something found much later? Did the reports indicate sporadic trees or a deep forest collection of trees?
Thanks.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 7, 2008 10:02:46 GMT -6
Thompson's' account has been discussed here and at many other forums and it is highly controversial as to how much of it is factual.
Here is Pvt. William Slaper's take on Thompson:
"I would like to state right here that I have read the story of Peter Thompson of C Troop, of his part in the Custer fight, and as I went through the battle from beginning to end, under Major Reno, I will say that I must differ with Thompson in many of his assertions.
His story of his wandering about from place to place after he got back with Reno, is beyond my belief. He would not have been allowed to wander around as he says he did, as we were scarcely allowed to lift our heads from the ground; by doing so it would draw the fire of the Indians who were on the higher ridges above us. He says he went for water four times after being shot in the arm. This was a task for a man with two good arms. I know, from having tried it myself. I am willing to believe that he made a trip for water -no more. I consider that he did a brave act at that. What he tells of seeing Custer's men fighting is beyond credence, and what he has to say about Major Reno are flat lies. He was sore at Reno because his (Thompson's) company was all killed with Custer.
Mr. Thompson bears a good reputation in his home town today as a good citizen, and if he would sit down and write a story of facts only of his experiences in the Custer fight, it would be interesting; but his story, as it stands, will never pass as long as there are any of the old boys of the 7th Cavalry left to dispute it."
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Nov 7, 2008 11:09:56 GMT -6
Here is a link to the an aerial view of Cedar Coulee from the 1969 NPS guide. These trees (junipers) grow very slowly in Eastern Montana. I have some pictures when I was a child some 40 yrs ago and the trees look relatively the same today. So in 1976, no doubt they looked like as in the aerial photo. If you look at my picture of Cedar Coulee, look to the right down the creek you will see MTC coming in from the right flowing left and disappearing toward LBH. In the middle of the picture stands a lone tree on a small ridge, behind and right of the tree is North MTC. When reviewing the Camp/Martin map this small ridge is noted as the route Martin returns with Cooke's message to Benteen. This small ridge is also shown as the point that Martin's horse is shot. As Martin continues up Cedar Coulee he comes upon Pvt. Peter Thompson whose horse gave out. With this in mind, a messenger returning with messages would follow the path his fellow troops came down, not to be lost in unknown terrain and hopefully able to come across Benteen somewhere close to where they divided forces. Pvt. Peter Thompson refers to the trail and I believe the same ridge (with the lone tree) by stating,"By this time, the last of the companies had disappeared over the crest of the hill. I was still tugging away at the spurs, when Watson come up and asked what the trouble was and then passed on in the trail of the soldiers."
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