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Post by fred on Oct 30, 2007 17:04:37 GMT -6
At the Reno Court of Inquiry, a number of battle participants said they overheard the issuance of orders. They saw Reno move forward. Yet no one looked back to see what Custer was doing. What was Custer doing, and why? What prompted him to move in a different direction or was that his intention all along? And how far did he go before he peered into the valley to see what was happening? We begin to get into conjecture here. While we pretty much know what happened to the men in the valley, once Custer got his first view of the village, we no longer know for certain what happens. This picture was taken from the vicinity of Ford A. In the distance, you can see the bluffs Custer's column rode up. After several hundred yards he swung more to the right, probably looking for a slightly easier way up. This picture was taken from what we now seem to call "Benteen Hill." It shows the general area of Custer's advance up to Reno Hill. Custer's column would be coming toward the photographer, from the far left. This will be the first thread dealing with the Custer battalions where we will not require only documented events. I invite all comers to give their scenario of what befell those five companies of American cavalry.Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by clw on Oct 31, 2007 10:53:32 GMT -6
from Command and General Staff College.....
"As Custer watered his horses at the north fork of Reno Creek, he confronted an altered situation, From the orders he had given Reno, it appears that he had originally intended to reinforce Reno's charge in the valley. Now that he knew the Indians were fighting, not running, he may have felt he needed to support Reno by attacking the Sioux village from a different direction. While he hoped at any moment to see Benteen's command riding into sight, the urgency of the situation meant he could not wait. Consequently, Custer turned his battalion northwest to follow the bluff line on the right bank of the Little Bighorn River. Apparently, he was seeking access to the river farther downstream in order to make a flank attack on the village."
"Custer's force climbed to the crest of Reno Hill, where he gained his first glimpse of the valley. He could see Reno's command still making its charge and could view the southern edge of the largest Indian village any of the veteran soldiers had ever seen. In fact, the village contained up to 1,000 lodges and 7,120 people, including 1,800 warriors. The sight of so many fighting warriors convinced Custer that he needed Benteen's command and the extra ammunition on the pack train immediately."
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 31, 2007 11:19:13 GMT -6
I think there is a fair bit of supposition in clw's last post.
As you are all probably aware I beleive there is a fair amount of evidence to show that Benteen was sent to the SW to find a way into the LBH valley. Thus at this time Custer would not have been expecting him to appear on the backtrail.
This is obviously a contentious issue and I am not sure how Fred will want to handle it in this and the earlier timeframes.
My evidence for Benteen's mission is published at length on the web so it is not really necessary to reproduce it here.
Regards
Mike
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Post by fred on Oct 31, 2007 14:41:13 GMT -6
Mike--
I agree with you about the "supposition" in the C&GS report posted by "clw." Since I am aware of the amount of work you put into this Benteen movement and the fact we are beginning to run into the "conjectural" areas, I am letting both posts stand and you may certainly feel free to put your ideas in here at this time. Your work is well done, well thought-out, and forms as strong a basis for theory as anyone else's.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by conz on Nov 8, 2007 8:06:06 GMT -6
Looking at Fred's picture, shouldn't Custer have been able to see rather precisely where Benteen's column was as he reached this position?
Custer could look in all directions from this vicinity...back toward the train and Benteen to see their dust, and down into the valley to see Reno advancing. So Custer, at this point, has near perfect intelligence of his own forces, and can also see the Natives and ponies on the other side of the valley.
Likewise, can't all these parties easily see Custer's dust? Of course, McDougall may not see it because he is in the bottoms, and Benteen probably can't distinguish Custer's dust from Reno's. But there is no excuse for Reno not knowing Custer's position...even if he didn't turn around in the saddle due to his excitement, other men and officers SHOULD have told him...THEY knew, at least.
Custer can also see some of the dust cloud of the pony herd being driven into the village as they disappear behind the Weir hill.
Near here (perhaps a few hundred yards north) is where many believe Custer waved to the forces in the bottom, and Varnum and others saw them as Reno dismounted.
When Custer reached this point in the photo, where should Reno have been...about parallel with him but down in the valley?
Clair
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Post by conz on Nov 8, 2007 8:16:43 GMT -6
Some witness accounts:
Girard at RCOI: “You have testified to the effect that it was about 1 o’clock [ed: later corrected to ten minutes past 2 o’clock] by your watch when Maj. Reno’s command left the timber, where he engaged the Indians. Now state how long it was before that, that you last saw Gen. Custer’s command or any part of it.” “Between ten and fifteen minutes, I should think before; prior to Maj. Reno leaving the timber. I saw Gen. Custer’s command, or a portion of it, just as I was going down into the timber.” “Where did you see it?” “In a southeasterly direction from where I was, about opposite the letter ‘d’ in the word ‘command’ in ‘Reno’s command’ as shown on the map.” “At what gait did the column you saw seem to be moving?” “It appeared to be moving very fast.”
1LT Charles Varnum, RCOI: “I don’t know what the expectation was on the part of others, but when I saw a command going on the bluffs, of course I saw some battalion was going to attack the lower end of the village, either form the bluffs or into the village; but how large that command was I did not know.”
1LT C. DeRudio, RCOI: “State whether you believe General Custer moved down with the intention of attacking the village, and with the expectation that Maj. Reno was still holding the Indians in check in front of the village.” “When I first saw him cheering us, I expected him to come and join us; but not seeing him come, I expected he was looking for a place to ford the river down those bluffs; and pretty soon Maj Reno retreated, and soon after that I heard the firing. I expected that General Custer had attacked the village on the other side.”
LT Lee, Recorder, RCOI: “The inference from the testimony is therefore perfect that the last view had by Gen. Custer of Maj. Reno’s command was when the latter was engaged; that he waved his hat signaling to Maj. Reno’s command, his own cheering words to his brave men ‘Courage boys.’ He did this doubtless with the hope of being seen by someone and then went back to his own column to make a flank attack in support of Major Reno. It is undisputed save by opinion that Gen. Custer’s engagement did not commence till after Maj. Reno had left the timber to retreat to the hill.”
T. Goldin, messenger, 1922 (note: discredited by Graham): “14. After swinging off to the right, how far down the river did Custer’s column go before he halted it to go up on the ridge with Martini?” “As I recall it, no halt was made, the column merely slowed down and Custer galloped over to the edge of the bluffs…I think in the neighborhood of a mile and a half (purely guess work)” “19. With reference to Reno’s position on the hill during the afternoon and evening of the 25th, how far down the river was this high point? How close to the river was it? “My recollection is that it was just a few hundred yards below the point where Reno’s line was finally formed on the afternoon of the 25th. I never visited the point in question.” “20. After Custer returned to the column, what, if anything, did you hear him say to the Adjutant or to other officers as to what he had seen?” “The only remark I heard Custer make was to Keogh: ‘Keogh, those Indians are running, if we can keep them at it we can afford to sacrifice some horses.” “25. Where, with reference to Reno’s first crossing of the river, did you cross it?” “My recollection is within 100 yards of it, downstream.” “29. How long had Reno been in action when you reached him?” “He was not yet in action.” “32. Did Lieutenant Wallace know that you had come through with a message from Custer? Did you ever tell him, or talk to him about it?” “I presume he did, possibly not at the time, but we often spoke of it later.” “33. Have you any idea what the message was?” “My only knowledge in this regard was what Custer said to the Adjutant: ‘Send word to Reno to crowd them in the rear, we’ll soon be with him.”
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Post by erkki on Nov 8, 2007 9:27:07 GMT -6
Looking at Fred's picture, shouldn't Custer have been able to see rather precisely where Benteen's column was as he reached this position? Dustin suggested that Custer had been able to see Benteen's dust--from Weir, I think--by the time he sent Martin with the note. Implicitly, Custer had not seen Benteen's trail when he sent Knipe. [I am not making a case for Dustin here. Just indicating who thought of it first.] This suggests to me that when Custer first reached the bluffs, Benteen had halted his battalion at the morass to water the horses. Alternatively, Benteen might have been so close to the pack train that the trails were indistinguishable before Custer moved north of this location, but still placing Benteen in the vicinity of the morass and about half an hour behind Custer/Reno when Reno crossed the river and GAC moved to the bluffs. Custer's viewpoint would have been the next hill north of the Reno-Benteen site from which Knipe was sent to the packs, and not "Benteen's Hill" shown in the picture.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 8, 2007 9:41:08 GMT -6
I hope the following is for the right day:
From A GOOD YEAR TO DIE (Richardson)
Custer ordered another halt for coffee when a 2nd courier arrived with a note that Varnum had seen smoke from the village. The colonel mounted a horse and rode toward the Crow's Nest. The first to notice Custer's soldiers appear to have been the Lakota & Cheyenne scouts who arrived as the village was moving to the LBH the previous day. They had been watching Crook and believed he was marching away. The Indians were returning to their people when they saw Custer's men on the Rosebud. Soon after they brought the news, several lodges of Oglalas arrived. They were heading toward Red Cloud Agency when they had seen the soldiers and decided to back to the village. Initially, the people were alarmed but their leaders counseled a wait-and-see position. The heads of both the Lakota & Cheyenne military societies summoned their warriors and sent them out to patrol the hills. Groups of warriors rode out to some 10 or 15 stations among the hills on both sides of the river, cordoning off the camps. Meanwhile many of the Indians were celebrating and visiting, but in some of the Lakota camps a serious tone was taking hold. Several boys had announced they wold take a suicide vow in the next battle and a ceremony was taking place. Most of the party and rituals ended at dawn with a parade to honor the suicide boys. Many finally went to sleep. Back at the Crow's Nest Varnum was having difficulties seeing anything, let alone a village and thousands of horses. The Crows told him not to look for horses, but worms, since that's how the herd appeared. Varnum still could not see anything, but could see a tipi standing and another partly wrecked, not to far form his position. He sent a courier to bring Custer. Meanwhile two Indians were sighted riding toward the command. Varnum stated: "We watched them discover our column." As Varnum rode out to meet Custer another group of Indians appeared and he could tell they were watching the approaching 7th Cavalry. On the peak, the Crows tried to show Custer the distant horse herd, but he could nee nothing. Boyer said: "if you don't find more Indians in that valley . . . you can hang me." Custer uncharacteristically swore at him. As Custer descended the CN's, T Custer met him with news of Indians discovering boxes of military supplies and rummaging through them. The Indians fled when soldiers approached. Custer issued an officers's call and related the information of what had transpired. This made it imperative that the 7th attack the village at once instead of waiting till the next morning.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 8, 2007 9:43:22 GMT -6
How much of a factor was Kanipe's instruction to tell Benteen to come too IF he saw him?
Does that mean Custer et al did not know the location of Benteen?
How much time went by before Martini was sent along to get Benteen and in that time was Benteen's position now known?
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Post by erkki on Nov 8, 2007 9:45:59 GMT -6
Some witness accounts: Girard at RCOI: “You have testified to the effect that it was about 1 o’clock [ed: later corrected to ten minutes past 2 o’clock] by your watch when Maj. Reno’s command left the timber, where he engaged the Indians. Now state how long it was before that, that you last saw Gen. Custer’s command or any part of it.” “Between ten and fifteen minutes, I should think before; prior to Maj. Reno leaving the timber. I saw Gen. Custer’s command, or a portion of it, just as I was going down into the timber.” “Where did you see it?” “In a southeasterly direction from where I was, about opposite the letter ‘d’ in the word ‘command’ in ‘Reno’s command’ as shown on the map.” “At what gait did the column you saw seem to be moving?” “It appeared to be moving very fast.” Note that the letter 'd' in the word ‘command’ in ‘Reno’s command’ on the Maguire map used at the RCOI puts Girard's sighting of Custer well back along the bluffs, and more nearly where most on this board think GAC was seen from the valley. This suggests that Girard did not see GAC near 2:00 p.m., Girard's time for Reno's retreat, but nearer 1:00 p.m., about the time Reno was charging down the valley to form the skirmish line, as others (O'Neill, Roy) in Reno's column noted.
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Post by conz on Nov 8, 2007 11:07:47 GMT -6
One of the key issues for me here is what caused Custer to deviate from Reno's trail?
Key to this determination is what information Custer had at hand when he made this decision...
Had he received Reno's first message?
Had he heard from Cooke or Keogh?
Did he have Native Scout information?
What was the location of his turn?
Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 8, 2007 11:50:20 GMT -6
It would appear to be the two messengers from Reno and Girard telling Cooke about Indians coming out to meet Reno rather than running that altered plans.
Both messengers ended up dead along with Cooke so we don't have 100% confirmation about delivery of message . . . but one has to believe Cooke did tell Custer since he was near Custer at the end of the fight.
Custer now knows Indians are going to fight. He would not have to chase after them which he must have believed would have been futile. Now he has his chance for a major battle and the destruction of the Indians. This must have caused a change of plans for Custer. Instead of immediately hitting the Indians with the promised support, he continues down river hoping he could find the far end of the village deserted of warriors and smash through the village.
According to Kanipe & Martini's reports to the pack train and Benteen that appeared to be what was or what was about to take place.
We now end up back to: what happened?
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Post by conz on Nov 8, 2007 15:27:55 GMT -6
Is my failing memory correct in thinking that Custer's early pronouncements to his men were "We've got them on the run!"
And that later it changes to: "We've caught them napping!"
If so and true, that would indicate a change in attitude, for if they are napping, then they aren't running.
Was his decision to diverge from Reno's trail, then, the indicator of that change of attitude?
Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 8, 2007 16:56:30 GMT -6
Two of the most (in)famous participants of the LBH:
Kanipe Martini
Good luck!
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Post by mwkeogh on Nov 14, 2007 2:22:26 GMT -6
One of the key issues for me here is what caused Custer to deviate from Reno's trail? Key to this determination is what information Custer had at hand when he made this decision... Had he received Reno's first message? Had he heard from Cooke or Keogh? Did he have Native Scout information? What was the location of his turn? Clair It is my belief that Custer deviated from Reno's trail to turn north onto the bluffs about 1/4 mile from Ford A, which would thus mark Benteen's "two horns of a dilemma" location. From near this spot, Benteen was able to view part of Reno's retreat from the valley (probably from the hillock where Girard delivered his message to Cooke & Keogh). My guess is that Custer rode up to the top of the bluffs to get a better view of the valley and what lay ahead of him while his command watered their horses at the ford along lower Ash Creek. His native scout information told him that the hostiles and the village were north down the valley (as opposed to south). It is entirely possible that Custer did not decide to move his own two battalions north along the bluffs until he got a glimpse himself of the valley from the high ground and made his determination to flank the warriors from there.
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