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Post by conz on Oct 26, 2007 11:22:24 GMT -6
Reno's version, from his autobiography:
"A reconnaissance would be necessary. Colonel Custer wanted to head it up but General Terry chose me instead. I do not know Custer's reason for seeking the assignment; neither do I know Terry's reason for refusing him...at 3:30 A.M. on June 10 I left Terry's camp on Powder River to look first for stray Indians to the south."
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Post by fred on Oct 30, 2007 14:42:18 GMT -6
Terry had traveled from the camp established on June 8 (camp # 19) located some 22-24 miles up the Powder River, to a meeting with Gibbon on the Yellowstone. He returned on June 9, late at night. On the 10th, he gave Reno the word to move. Some time on the 9th or 10th he made the decision to make the scout. It had to have been during or after the conversations with Gibbon.
"... [O]nly Terry, for undisclosed reasons, felt it necessary to scout for stray Indians up the Powder Valley and back, while avoiding the only areas where a village had been seen. It was Custer who perceived that such a move was futile at best, delaying in any case, and at worst might dive the Indians to scatter in flight. He thus declined to command it. One wonders what purpose Terry saw in the operation." John Gray, Custer's Last Campaign, p. 183.
Gray cites no references for that opinion, if that is what it was. We either accept Gray for his word or we drop another cactus spike on his grave. Knowing the military chain of command and how such an organism works, I have empathy for Gray's position. A general officer would not usually go around one of his commanders and order that commander's subordinate to take half that commander's unit and head out on a scout. In American military parlance, that would be pronounced a "folks-paz." If I were a complete novice regarding this battle and its attendant events, it would strike me that Terry would have offered the mission to Custer who would have respectfully declined, dumping the "futility" on his subordinate.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by clw on Oct 31, 2007 12:14:17 GMT -6
from Command and General Staff College....
"Unaware of Crook's activities but armed with the information furnished by Gibbon's messengers, Brigadier General Alfred H. Terry finally had specific, if somewhat stale, intelligence regarding the Indian locations. This new information called for new orders, which Terry issued on 10 June. Major Marcus A. Reno of Lieutenant Colonel George A. Custer's command was to take six companies of cavalry on a reconnaissance of the valleys of the Powder River, Mizpah Creek, and Tongue River. Under no circumstances was he to venture west of the Tongue so as not to alarm the Indians on Rosebud Creek, Reno was to finish his reconnaissance at the mouth of the Tongue, where he was to rejoin Custer and the rest of the 7th Cavalry Regiment. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Note on bold above: The way that is phrased by the officers who wrote this history leads me to guess that the order went down the chain of command.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Nov 10, 2007 7:54:39 GMT -6
A curious order. On the one hand, the absence of instructions on what to do if he does find Indians implies that's not expected he will: that it's a "where the Indians are not" exercise. On the other, giving him a Gatling gun implies that action is expected.
The most striking omission from Reno's orders is that there is no reference whatsoever to the 'hostiles'. As the prime purpose of the whole 1876 Campaign was to locate and subdue the free roamers, it is noticeable that Reno's orders contain no specifics in that regard. That is almost certainly because the prime purpose was so fundamental to every action contemplated by Terry and without doubt very much a continuing subject of daily discussions, that it was implicit in Terry's orders to Reno. As the orders to Custer have been referred to in this thread, it is perhaps relevant to mention that to analyze Herendeen's purpose as only to let Terry know if there were Indians in Tullock's Creek, is to overlook the parallel in Reno's orders whereby the implicit and most important factor is intelligence on the location of the 'hostiles.'
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Post by herosrest on Oct 22, 2015 14:54:01 GMT -6
DucemusDuring the march, Reno's scout moved over the trail of hostile villages which had camped on the fork of the Powder, at the mouth of Mizpah Creek. That trail showed movement west to the Tongue River, where the villages camped at conjuction of the Pumpkin. Well done Major. It was a rainy day!
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Oct 26, 2015 14:49:34 GMT -6
I might be in the minority. I think Reno did okay on the scout. Okay, he went too far and gets chewed out by Terry for doing so. If Terry had ordered the scout and asked Custer to choose the commander of the scout and the six companies, who do we think Custer would have chosen to lead it? Not Reno, nor Benteen. It would have been one of his toadies. Of course he might have chosen himself, but then asked to take the whole 7th with him. He wanted to slip away and do his own show anyway.
Also, it's easier for Terry to chew out Reno. He gets points with Custer for doing this plus Custer is pretty steamed too. Shows what a weak commander Terry was. Terry's got a balancing act going on between showing Custer who's boss, but at the same time keeping Custer's good will so that he can be in on the final attack. After all, Custer's the best Indian Fighting commander Terry's got.
Reno, who IMHO is a tragic figure, gets a chance at independent command. He knows Custer's going to be unhappy about it, but he takes his chances anyway and goes a bit outside of his operational orders. Even if he had followed orders exactly, he loses because Custer is pissed off that Reno got independent command of six companies of the 7th cavalry.
If I were Reno I would have tried to make contact with the NA's after scouting their village thoroughly. Then it would have been me (Reno) sending a message to Terry and Custer.
"Big Village"
"Come quick"
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2015 9:32:21 GMT -6
Ducemus
During the last week of April 1876, the hostile camp located on the fork of the Powder and Mitzpah Creek. Reno's scout moved across this trail during his march of 10-11th June. The trail moved west to the forks of Tongue at Pumpkin Creek, down the Tongue, back towards the Yellowtone during mid may and thence across to Rosebud.
Was Terry aware o the Pumpkin Creek camp site and trail moving south from there?
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2017 16:56:39 GMT -6
Most annoying that I ain't nailed it down yet. Terry met Gibbon and had intel. Bouyer accompanied Terry from Gibbon to Custer based upon what? All I find to go on is Bradley's adventures and Bouyers knowlede.
Missing something.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 19, 2017 16:58:23 GMT -6
The 2nd Cavalry scout. McClernand. Yippieyiyea Hmmm....... OK. Reno moved 40 miles in scouting Rosebud. So he moved beyond the Reno Creek Fork and obviously along the trail in Reno Creek. Bouyer was with him. Need Smith's diary. 2nd Cav left warning for the hostiles which was responded to with sign left and detected by 7th Cav scouts on march from Rosebud (Ree Narrative). Sign of the times and time of the signs. How good was McClernand? (psy-ops) Shoot.... He was EO. Must be maps.... Silk maps.... Aaaah...... There's a book about this. Bradley discovered Custer's dead and counted 196. Had been on scout in Little Bighorn valley before fight. Was there with two companies a few weeks before fight. [Lieut.] Jacobs and [Lieut.] McClernand volunteered to go to Crook, but Terry would not consent to permit an officer to go. Camp, Custer and the Little Bighorn - Hardorff RoM - The Bighorn river crossing at the LBH confluence - C.F. Smith - returned along Tullock from LBH........ from?? Rotten grass, stinking water, 1874 the Boys route & remains..... burnt wagons...... Bradley reported the 1874 Yellowstone Wagon Road & Prospecting Expedition. Cheyenne presence. Minnieconjou. Vestal notes on fight and hostile accounts. McCormick and ex Crow Indian Agent..... Darn..... Pease. F.D. Pease and Fort Pease and Muggins Taylor made crack shot from Ft. Pease. The Tullock guy...... Was wolving from his dugout. Herendeen. Crow scouts horses were raided from Gibbon's camp. Bouyer swam river after Sioux herd. Bradley walked about the camp at night carrying a lantern. Bradley scouted with Bouyer and Bouyer knew where the Sioux were. Is it reliable that Bouyer sailed with Terry on Far West but was called back by Custer...... This was from...... Custer's message to Reno in the valley.... Graham's 46 questions guy. Benteen letters..... Goldin. Had Bouyer gone with Terry, then..... The scout on whiskey & quinine with broken collarbone.... LaForge.... Curley. Two curs at Ft. Pease. You can tell that i'm bored....
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