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Post by Autie on Aug 4, 2005 17:42:58 GMT -6
I think it's pretty much accepted that Custer divided his 5 companies into two battalions and sent a battalion of two companies to the ford. His remaining three moved to Nye-Cartwright, probably to await Benteen and see the result of the movement to the ford. This doesn't make much sense to me. Godfrey came to believe, after going over the battlefield with Gall at the tenth anniversary that Custer's men never got any closer to the river than where they were found. And that the tracks of shod horses were Sioux riding captured 7th cavalry mounts. I think that the evidence is pretty conclusive that there was cavalry shooting from Nye-Cartwright. Possibly Custer sent two companies to charge the Indians who had crossed the river and scatter them them while he waited for Benteen? There are many possibilities, and none make much sense to me. Godfrey just may have been correct, but his theory doesn't explain all the cavalry brass later found on Nye-Cartwright.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 5, 2005 1:39:08 GMT -6
Walt -- great, I'll watch out for it.
Autie -- couldn't agree more. So much of this doesn't make sense. I thought I had a glimmer of a theory that did, the other day ... but I've yet to work it through and see if it holds up ... Well, that's the fun of it all, isn't it!
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 6, 2005 7:39:44 GMT -6
Custer was trying to do two things at once. The two companies (E&F) that went to the ford were on a recon mission. Custer was looking for the non-combatants. Once he had the women and children in hand, the warriors would come to heel. The other three companies he sent over Nye-Cartwright Ridge to intercept any movement of the non-combatants north of the village. Custer was well aware of the danger of splitting his command even further, once the recon was done at MTC ford and he saw the village was devoid of women and children he struck north to link with the other three companies. There, he posted Company L to maintain a line of communication to (he assumed) Benteen's advancing column. As there was already pressure coming from the east and south, he left Co C and I to support Calhoun and he took the other two companies on a second recon to the river, still searching for the non-combatants. There, he encountered resistance from the growing numbers of Cheyenne and he could still not see the non-combatants. He was now a good mile and a half from the bulk of his battalion. He returned back the way he came and the entire battalion was put on the defense by the aggressive movement of the warriors. The rest you know. I think all he did makes good military sense, he was trying to locate the non-combatants and complete his mission, which was to capture them and force the Sioux and their allies to the reservations. Reno was timid, Benteen was sluggish and Custer's immediate command perished.
Walt
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Post by Autie on Aug 6, 2005 8:53:19 GMT -6
Walt, that is about as good an analysis as I've read about Custer movements and intentions after he arrived at MTC. So Custer left three companies who deployed across Nye-Cartwright to await Benteen and be in position to intercept the non-combatants if they tried to escape that way. He then took two companies and attempted to cross the ford? or decided not to as he didn't see the non-combatants that he was looking for, then he continued on northward, eventually to cemetary ridge to head off any non-combatants attempting to escape to the north? Then, not finding what he was looking for, returned to the battlefield and got as far as LSH. Meanwhile, the three companies he left behind were being decimated and attempting to flee north to join with him. Then, with only two companies and a few stragglers, he was quickly finished off by the warriors. It only makes sense if he was totally focused on capturing the women and children and was gambling everything on the success of that.
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 8, 2005 7:55:08 GMT -6
Autie; I actually think Custer was only on a recon mission to the ford with an added benefit of perhaps relieving some of the pressure on Reno. Had he intended to enter the village I believe he would have taken the entire battalion. After leaving the ford he made physical contact with the other three companies, likely at Calhoun Hill, where he gave orders for their disposition. Then he struck north and west hoping to see the non-combatants and cross the Little Big Horn. However as I mentioned, the Cheyenne were there in some strength and he turned back with the results of which you are well aware. I don’t believe the right wing was over run until Custer was in position possibly for some time on LSH. You are right when you say he gambled everything on capturing the non-combatants. When that failed his mission failed.
Walt
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Post by Tony on Aug 8, 2005 8:31:52 GMT -6
Walt-pretty good theory--but as I recall testimony asserted that as soon as the companies at ford "B" retreated back to Luce/Cartwright or Calhoun, the warriors came across the ford in droves-right on their heels---going up MTC to attack from the East and also attacking from the West (river side) Could it be possible that L and C were immediately deployed to resist attack from the west?--"I" being deployed to resist from the East?--I believe that as soon as the companies reunited on Calhoun, Custer realized then that he was in big trouble. I think he may have looked to the south (Weir Hill area) hoping to see Benteen, and instead saw warriors coming from that direction. He then realized he was on the defensive. The move to LSH may have been an attempt to preclude his being "flanked" by the warriors now coming out of Deep Ravine--he had to deploy on LSH to stop them from flanking him on Calhoun and Battle ridge.--What do you think?
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 8, 2005 11:20:53 GMT -6
Tony; Thanks. Actually, Custer is thought to have gone up Deep Coulee to Calhoun Hill, he did not retrace his route, at least not with the two companies of the left wing. However, you are correct, the Indians did come up MTC and they did attack from the South, no doubt about it. Since E and F with Custer were West of C and L and I, those three companies engaged Indians from the East and South and later Co C engaged warriors from the SouthWest on Greasy Grass Ridge. Initially the pressure was not great, the Indians were still either busy with Reno or moving from Reno toward Custer. That allowed Custer to continue offensive operations, which is the lifeblood of a cavalry unit. They are not meant to go on the defensive except against other cavalry. It was during his second attempted river crossing that Kellogg was killed. What you say is correct Custer and the two companies under his direct command did try to stop a flanking movement from the West. But meantime, the right wing collapsed under the Indian pressure, and eventually Custer at LSH.
Walt
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Post by Tony on Aug 8, 2005 12:48:33 GMT -6
Walt--is it your thought that Custer went to ford "B" with Yates? If so then as you stated, they went up deep Coulee to Calhoun to reunite with Keogh? If I follow you, then while C,L,and I were combating warriors from the South, West and East, Custer took E and F and went to ford "D"--is this correct in your opinion? Is it your thought that Custer then may have been killed at ford "D" and the command only got as far back South as LSH? I was always under the impression that Custer, after Yates retreated from ford "B" and after the warriors came across ford "B" in mass that Custer immediately went into a defensive mode--deploying C,L,and I around Calhoun Hii area (Keogh and I to resist the pressure from the East)--I believe that Custer had no choice but to go on the defensive once he saw that Benteen was not coming from Weir and that the warriors crossed in mass on Yates retreat. Once he was on Calhoun, Custer may have seen the warriors now coming out of Deep Ravine and circling around the north--so he took E and F to LSH to stem the flanking movement of the warriors. By the way, what evidence is there (other than Cheyenne oral) that Custer even went as far as ford "D"?
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 8, 2005 15:31:16 GMT -6
Tony; I do think that Custer went to MTC ford with the left wing (under Yates). He was always in the forefront of action. Knowing that, its really inconceivable he would have been anywhere else. I think the combat between the right wing (under Keough) was very sporadic at that point. Not many warriors had crossed over yet after dealing with Reno. The fighting that was going on was between the right wing and a 50 or so warrior hunting party that came from the east.
No, I think Lt. Algernon Smith was severely wounded at MTC ford, Custer died on LSH. Smith was not with his soldiers when they died en masse, he was with the headquarters group on LSH. I think he was taken there, wounded, after the recon at MTC ford. It was too early for Custer to know Benteen wasn't coming. That didn't dawn on him until the collapse of the right wing which happened very suddenly..
Other than the Cheyenne statements, (after all they were there and must be considered primary sources) there is the location of Kellogg's body near ford "D". He always rode with the command group. Thee may be some cartridge archeology that also points to a recon of ford "D". Anyway, that's my opinion, for what its worth.
Walt
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Post by Tony on Aug 9, 2005 8:47:04 GMT -6
Walt--your theory seems to be very well thought out as always. But let me ask you a question that I posted on this post before--do you think that the entire command could have gone to ford "B", leaving only a few troopers on the ridges to wait for Benteen? In the beginning, it was thought that Custer took the entire command to the ford, was repelled, and went to Calhoun Hill--the proof being testimony from warriors who were there, and the fact that Custer's trail (entire trail) was followed right to the ford--now granted the trail is not great proof, but I always said that if he did split his command, someone should have seen the trail of 3 companies split and go out over the north rim of MTC, if Benteen was actually following Custer's trail---It was only after years that the split theory emerged. Could it have really been that simple? Did Custer take the entire command to ford "B" and then retreat to Calhoun Hill?
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 9, 2005 9:40:45 GMT -6
The way I understand it from Curley's account, Custer did indeed turn left as he entered MTC with the entire command. Approximately halfway to the MTC ford he came under assault from the hunting party from the east. He called a meeting of the officers at which time the troopers adjusted their equipment, including dismounting and tightening cinches etc. Then, Custer continued toward the ford with Yates' left wing consisting of Co E and F. Keogh rode back east with Co I, C, and L in that order and then turned left out of MTC and climbed Nye-Cartwright Ridge. There, the right wing came under some pressure from the warriors and both company C and L formed a mounted skirmish line, firing east and south as warriors filtered up MTC and followed them. This engagement lasted some minutes and marked the opening phase of Co L's nearly non-stop contact with the Indians. Later, Co L would dismount and deploy in a skirmish line on Calhoun Hill. Their horses, with half their ammo was taken over the hill and held near the reserve consisting of Co C while Co I deployed along battle ridge facing east. Later, Co C would be sent by Keogh on a mounted charge down Finley Ridge to dislodge the Indians firing on Co L from Greasy Grass Ridge. Fox asserts they rode too close to GGR and Indian fire decimated their ranks. While it is true that Sgts Finley and Finckle died there as well as some Co C troops, I believe the collapse of the right wing had other causes, that in fact it was Co L that collapsed due to a lack of ammunition. Co C, their rear flank threatened, fell back toward Calhoun Hill and under Harrington, fought a rear guard action. But they could do nothing for Co L and I who were overwhelmed by Indians. Co C fought its way back to LSH that is why men from Co C are scattered across the battlefield and why they died at LSH. At least, that's the way I see it.
Walt
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Post by shatonska on Aug 9, 2005 10:46:20 GMT -6
The way I understand it from Curley's account, Custer did indeed turn left as he entered MTC with the entire command. Approximately halfway to the MTC ford he came under assault from the hunting party from the east. He called a meeting of the officers at which time the troopers adjusted their equipment, including dismounting and tightening cinches etc. Then, Custer continued toward the ford with Yates' left wing consisting of Co E and F. Keogh rode back east with Co I, C, and L in that order and then turned left out of MTC and climbed Nye-Cartwright Ridge. There, the right wing came under some pressure from the warriors and both company C and L formed a mounted skirmish line, firing east and south as warriors filtered up MTC and followed them. This engagement lasted some minutes and marked the opening phase of Co L's nearly non-stop contact with the Indians. Later, Co L would dismount and deploy in a skirmish line on Calhoun Hill. Their horses, with half their ammo was taken over the hill and held near the reserve consisting of Co C while Co I deployed along battle ridge facing east. Later, Co C would be sent by Keogh on a mounted charge down Finley Ridge to dislodge the Indians firing on Co L from Greasy Grass Ridge. Fox asserts they rode too close to GGR and Indian fire decimated their ranks. While it is true that Sgts Finley and Finckle died there as well as some Co C troops, I believe the collapse of the right wing had other causes, that in fact it was Co L that collapsed due to a lack of ammunition. Co C, their rear flank threatened, fell back toward Calhoun Hill and under Harrington, fought a rear guard action. But they could do nothing for Co L and I who were overwhelmed by Indians. Co C fought its way back to LSH that is why men from Co C are scattered across the battlefield and why they died at LSH. At least, that's the way I see it. Walt as michno noted , the line of henry fire on henryville was too near to cahloun and in the wrong direction to be against him , the direction of fire was toward finley not cahloun and shows that cahloun hill collapsed before finley because only a vacated cahloun hill could permit henry fire from that so near position
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Post by Tony on Aug 9, 2005 11:01:24 GMT -6
Walt--I see it a little differently, but this is what makes post like this interesting. You said Custer and "E" and "F" went to ford "B", but you didn't say what you think happened to them or where they went. I don't think Custer went with the companies to the ford. He had just sent for Benteen. When you send for someone to come quick, you don't leave the area. I think he sent two companies to the ford to either hold it or check for a crossing. When he saw the warriors coming toward the ford from the village and from the direction of the pony herds he realized Yates was in trouble and recalled him via bugle call (warriors report hearing bugle calls at that point). I believe Custer was on the high ridge to both keep an eye on the village, and wait for Benteen--as Yates retreated, the warriors came across the ford in droves and headed both south (MTC) and north along the river. Custer went to Calhoun so as not to be outflanked by the warriors headed north--he set up "L" on Calhoun facing south and "I" on the east slope to stem the attack from the east. "C" was deployed alongside "L" facing west--as "C" charged the warriors to dislodge them, they were attacked from the flank and rear--"L" now had to redeploy to face west to assist and stem the attack now coming from the west. It was Crazy Horse that led the charge through the gap between "L" and "E" and "F" who were now on LSH--I believe that charge was the downfall of the right wing--"L" was now attacked suddenly from their rear and quickly attacked from the west almost simultaneously--we know the end!
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Post by shatonska on Aug 9, 2005 13:11:26 GMT -6
yes collapse at cahloun was caused by the crazyhorse move ,
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 10, 2005 6:32:37 GMT -6
Shatonksa; Your point makes my point. The warriors could not have fired on Finley Ridge without Calhoun having already fallen. Good observation!
Tony; Walt--I see it a little differently, but this is what makes post like this interesting. You said Custer and "E" and "F" went to ford "B", but you didn't say what you think happened to them or where they went.
I ADDRESSED THIS EARLIER AND DIDN’T WANT TO TAKE YOUR TIME BY REPEATING IT TO YOU.
I don't think Custer went with the companies to the ford. He had just sent for Benteen. When you send for someone to come quick, you don't leave the area.
I THINK YOU DO IF YOU BELIEVE YOUR ORDERS WILL BE OBEYED. COMMANDERS DON’T HAVE THE LUXURY OF HANGING AROUND TO SEE IF EVERY INSTRUCTITON IS CARRIED OUT. ESPECIALLY IF YOUR COMMAND IS ENGAGED!
I think he sent two companies to the ford to either hold it or check for a crossing. When he saw the warriors coming toward the ford from the village and from the direction of the pony herds he realized Yates was in trouble and recalled him via bugle call (warriors report hearing bugle calls at that point).
I HAVE NOT BEEN TO THE BATTLEFIELD, BUT I UNDERSTAND YOU CANNOT SEE MTC FORD FROM CALHOUN HILL OR NYE-CARTWRIGHT RIDGE. YOU HAVE ANYTHING ON THAT? I CAN QUIRY SOME FELLAS I KNOW ON ANOTHER FORUM REGARDING THAT IF YOU LIKE. THEY HAVE BEEN GOING TO LBH FOR YEARS.
I believe Custer was on the high ridge to both keep an eye on the village, and wait for Benteen--as Yates retreated, the warriors came across the ford in droves and headed both south (MTC) and north along the river.
CUSTER RARELY, IF EVER, WAITED FOR ANYTHING! HE WAS SO FULL OF NERVOUS ENERGY HE NEVER SAT STILL WHEN THE COMMAND WAS MOVING. YOU MAY WISH TO READ PRIVATE PETER THOMPSON’S NARRATIVE REGARDING THE CAMPAIGN HE REMARKS OVER AND OVER ABOUT HOW CUSTER NEVER WAITED. (THOMPSON SERVED IN CO C).
Custer went to Calhoun so as not to be outflanked by the warriors headed north--he set up "L" on Calhoun facing south and "I" on the east slope to stem the attack from the east. "C" was deployed alongside "L" facing west--as "C" charged the warriors to dislodge them, they were attacked from the flank and rear--"L" now had to redeploy to face west to assist and stem the attack now coming from the west. It was Crazy Horse that led the charge through the gap between "L" and "E" and "F" who were now on LSH--I believe that charge was the downfall of the right wing--"L" was now attacked suddenly from their rear and quickly attacked from the west almost simultaneously--we know the end!
QUITE POSSIBLE.
Walt
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