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Post by Tony on Aug 2, 2005 9:49:54 GMT -6
OK--here's yet another subject for debate. Did Custer really split his 5 companies? All we seem to have on this is Curleys' account--and we know that he was not that truthful. We do have a few warriors I believe who stated that some troopers may have been on the bluffs while then command went to the river. BUT, the majority of the warriors stated that the entire command came to the river. Here's what really bothers me on this. Several troopers (i.e. Benteen, DeRudio Stanlis ? and a few others) stated that on the 27th they followed Custer's trail down MTC right to the river. Now if 3 comapnies (left wing) seperated from the rest , wouldn't someone see the trail split--that many horses would leave a distinct trail--Yet Derudio said that the whole trail went down to the river, and it appeared that some horses went right into the river. Benteen stated that the trail went right to the river, than quickly turned on itself as if riders suddenly and quickly turned on the clay at the river bank--or somthing to that effect. Now, if only 10-12 troopers stood on the ridges waiting for Benteen, then maybe their trail would not have been seen deverting from the rest. What other evidece do we have that the command split? I just can't see that no trooper would see the trail spliting!
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Post by shatonska on Aug 2, 2005 10:50:01 GMT -6
archeological evidences , fox is wrong in many assumptions but there are good evidences , companies were almost all united where they died not all mixed as if thy where all togheter
indians testimony of custer going to ford d , cahloun and keogh were with him ? impossible to find them where they died on this case
i don't believe what benteen and many soldiers told of the battle , they tried to cover themselver , always
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 2, 2005 17:13:30 GMT -6
It would seem highly improbable that tracks would give a true indication of the command's movements. Once the fighting started horses must have been running in all directions and when horses were captured by Indians they were led away. So shod tracks would not be a reliable means for troop movement.
SHATONSKA:
It appears groups of men from companies died together during the initial assaults, but once the heavy fighting took place men started running to the next company and so forth until there was some mix up of men of different companies.
Another issues was many of the officers found dead on Last Stand Hill did not die with their companies. Possibly they came together to discuss battle plans but were quickly overwhelmed or were not able to return to their companies.
If so . . . it would seem the ferocity of the battle intensified so quickly that there was no time to react. And once officers were not in command of their companies, it was up to NCOs to take over. It's possible that may have resulted in a rapid disintergration of organization.
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Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Son of a Cavalryman on Aug 2, 2005 21:49:51 GMT -6
I agree with Crzhrs, there was so much mounted movement of Indians during and after the battle, no way was there a clear trail that would indicated one direction down MTC over the other direction over Nye-Cartwright Ridge. Just guesses by DeRudio and others.
SOACM
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Post by El Crab on Aug 2, 2005 23:27:12 GMT -6
The only officer who was truly out of place was Tom Custer, and he might not have been with Co. C anyway. A.E. Smith was on the hill, while its assumed most of his company was dead below. Its possible he wasn't serving with his company due to injury, past or present. Keogh was with his company, Calhoun and Crittenden with L. Yates and Reily with F, even though Reily was technically an E Company officer serving with F. HQ was found mostly intact, at the top of the hill.
The one thing you have to remember is there's no guarantee E Company was killed down closer to the river. Other soldiers from different companies were said to be there. Its assumed they were, since multiple IDs were made of E Company troopers. Same with Finley Ridge, Calhoun Hill and Keogh's sector. They are assumed to be from their respective companies because of officers, non-coms and the few privates ID'd in those areas.
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Post by shatonska on Aug 3, 2005 4:45:32 GMT -6
regarding indians accounts , these are individual storyes , a few talked about custer going to ford d ( cheyennes ) because only a few cheyennes were there to see it , lakota were still coming from reno battlefield , they didn't see custer until the great mass sorrounded the battlefield but cheyenne talks of custer going to ford d or near then retreat to lsh , if it is true and in my opinion it is the command was surely split
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 3, 2005 5:53:26 GMT -6
If they all went to Ford D -- then what's the real story behind where C, I & L ended up? It's a fascinating question. Calls for a complete rewriting of the accepted narrative, if true ...
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Post by shatonska on Aug 3, 2005 9:46:36 GMT -6
If they all went to Ford D -- then what's the real story behind where C, I & L ended up? It's a fascinating question. Calls for a complete rewriting of the accepted narrative, if true ... they all went to ford d is impossible , from 16.25 until 17 volleys and eavy fire was herad from the wood and from reno hill , this came from luce and or cahloun hill and we now that some remaning companys were pushed from cahloun to lsh not the contrary ( as all indians stated )
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Post by Tony on Aug 3, 2005 10:21:38 GMT -6
I think I may have been a little misunderstood--I was talking about the initial separation in MTC--Supposedly Custer took 3 or 4 companies and road out of MTC onto the ridges to the north (Luce/Cartwright). I am aware of the shod horse's being a little difficult to follow, and the fact that horses were all over that day--BUT, Benteen, DeRudion and the rest positively stated that they had little trouble following Custer's trail from Reno Hill to ford "B"--so that would indicate that the trail was quite accessible regardless of the random movements of horses--they had to be following something--now if they were following that trail as stated, then it would have been pretty easy to spot 3 or 4 companies diverting from that trail--especially out and over the rim of MTC. As for ford "D" Custer may have ridden there after setting up I and C on Calhoun, and after Yates retreat from ford"B"--if thats what took place--BUT what if Custer did not separate as most warriors claim and went directly to ford"B" with the entire command--it may have been just that simple--over the years , as with any major event, historians may have complicated issues by being bored with what really happened or over investigated events to make things more exciting!!
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Post by Tricia on Aug 3, 2005 12:33:40 GMT -6
Mike Donahue of the NPS theorises that only E and F companies headed anywhere near Ford D. I think F actually got as far as the ford, following Battle Ridge, whilst E protected Cemetary Hill, eventually facing considerable fighting there before falling back closer to LSH--or it may be vice-versa. C, I, and L were dispatched as is typically believed ... well, there is still some controversy whether C was attached to the HQ staff ....
Regards, Leyton McLean
(sorry for any incongruities, I'm resorting to memory)
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Post by shatonska on Aug 3, 2005 13:40:28 GMT -6
got it now Tony if i recall well archeological and other findings showed big presence on luce and cartridge ridges and a few findings but still something towards the ford indicating a separation , indians speak of a few soldiers investigating the ford repulsed by the indians with a couple of losses and 1 sergeant golopping across the ford and killed in the village i think the most realistic theory is that of the separation with the feint or investigation at the ford as describet by michno in lakota noon, but non separation in squadron is possible
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 3, 2005 17:49:42 GMT -6
Elisabeth; You're right, it would take a rewrite. You will find it in my book when its published later this year. As for Tom Custer, El Crab, he definitely was not with Co C, but rode with GAC as his aide de camp. Co C was under the command of Lieutenant Henry Moore Harrington, one of the most experienced subalterns in the regiment. As for Algernon Smith, he wasn't with his company at the death because he had either 1) been killed at MTC ford, or more likely 2) was seriously wounded there. I don't think they would have dragged a dead body along with them, so I opt for 2).
Walt Cross
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 4, 2005 2:28:29 GMT -6
Walt -- I'm looking forward to reading it. Do you have a publication date yet?
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Post by Tony on Aug 4, 2005 9:35:26 GMT -6
Ok were getting closer--I was referring to ford "B" concerning the separation and not ford "D"--it is accepted fact that Custer split his command in MTC, sending two companies to ford "B" for whatever reason (i.e. feint, hold the ford, investigate a crossing etc.) But, what evidence do we really have that verifies this movement? My original question "was it possible that the entire command went to ford "B' before going to Calhoun? Was it really that simple. and over time historians for whatever reason (i.e. boredom, over investigating, want of a new theory etc.) decided that was not enough and that possible more excitement had to be engendered? This of course would have occurred before movements at ford "D"--if any. Once again, what evidence do we have that Custer took 3/4 companies and rode out over the ridge of MTC, while sending 1/2 companies to ford "B"?--Remember the majority of warriors all stated that the entire command came down close to the river!
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Post by Walt Cross on Aug 4, 2005 17:04:26 GMT -6
Elisabeth; Not precisely, but the publisher has indicated well before Christmas.
Walt
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