Billy you mentioned that he might have died on the reservation from being under the influence of alcohol.....
Hi Billy and all,
I have not read all of this thread but just a comment on this quote from you. If I remember correctly, there is a plaque at the site of the old Fort Sill hospital that states that Geronimo was hospitialized there where he died from Pnemonia. Now, this was following an incident where he had fallen off of his horse while intoxicated, he fell into a mud puddle from his horse on a very cold night.
His autobiography is very interesting. I would like to say that he was guilty of being a "wantabe" but what he wanted was his freedom to live on his native land. We have to give him credit for being able to hold out as long as he did.
After arriving at Fort Sill, he had mellowed out and even began to change his spiritial beliefs, he attended a reformed church at Fort Sill and once said that the White man's religion was better that his own.
There was a nice article I read once called , The Day Geronimo Smiled. It was about a little boy who couriously approached him one day at the Frisco Station. He found Geronimo laying on the loading dock at the station waiting for passengers to arrive to sell his goods. When the little boy looked into his face up close, Geronimo opened his eyes and smiled at the boy. Of course the story is a little more detailed but it does show that he was a changed man.
When I lived at Fort Sill, for many years from the late 50's to the mid 60's, many of the local Comanche, Apache, Kiowa, and Caddo were employed at Fort Sill working in differnent capacities such as the PX and the Commissary. While I am sure not everyone saw him as a hero, I don't really think he was disliked by that many of his native people. At least I have not heard of any. There is a little town near Fort Sill called Apache, Oklahoma. This is where Geronimo lived for the last years of his life. Most of the residents there are descendants of Geronimo.
Last Edit: Jul 26, 2010 9:37:33 GMT -5 by Lawtonka
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
The Apache's have bad things to say about Geronimo because his battles were sometimes fought to the very last man and he had high warrior casualties ( I'm referencing his own statements from his autobiography). And Markland's last comments of my hero are utter rubbish to the highest degree. Geronimo has personally taken out high ranking officers, high as mexican generals, with his daring and greatness. He has been the very last man standing, as I stated above, when rubbing out the enemy and driving his warriors to the utmost potential. His stands against the mexicans are legendary and our government should have praised him for it. Given our history in warring with Mexico throughout so many years, what kind of nation were we to side with them?
As far as I'm concerned, any one with a beef against Geronimo is simply ticked off at the fact that he was so cooperative with the U.S. and converted to Christianity and was very fascinated with our ways of life. Shame on them. Look at the man's face, few other warriors have that magnificent scowl, we are highly blessed to have photos of such one as him. He was "the one who yawns", and he'll yawn at any one of those shrimpy Sioux if he ever had to face them.
The U.S. imprisoned a great warrior with no quarrel toward America. He was treated like a fugitive, and for no good reason at all.
Without question, Geronimo is no villain to me, but by perception, I guess it may be so. A "wantabe", he is not. I would dare any wimpy historian to look him in the face with that statement. Teddy Roosevelt had a comment about critics and commentators, its easy to comment and criticize, its harder to be a great man yourself, and more worthwhile. It is my intense laughter and delight to find any history person trying to say less of so many great men. Even Napoleon could easily slice us all to death better than what we'd want to admit, no matter how short he is. And I erupt in giggles when I think of all the historians that step forth to say "every one was shorter back in the old days". Food for thought to them, almost every king of England and President of the United States, have been around six footers with mostly few exceptions. And don't get me started on the Russian Czars, Peter the Great was a big stick man at 6'7", with detailed and beautiful paintings.
I bet that most historians didn't know that 20" biceps were around before steroids. I have a collection of photographs of old time turn of the century athletes, I pattern my bodybuilding on them and I can bend steel with my bare hands. I can show you photos of Georg Hackenschmidt or some other Russian bodybuilders from 1900 to 1920 (and times before that) who put Arnold Schwarzenegger to shame ( and I mean that. I boasted innaccurately of myself before, but these gents are 100% better quality than Arnie). I can show 7 footers who'd cradled 300 pounds beneath each arm, these things are photographed, recorded, and recorded again. Size and strength and power is not to be doubted, the foolish ones who do are the same ones who get hooked on drugs and deny us perspective of the athletes of yesteryear.
Old time baseball players are magnificent, each one had a secret edge and training technique of their own. For every excess and drunken gluttony that Babe Ruth had, he also had secrets to combat every ailment. Big Fur coats full of pocket money would weigh him down just as Blackbeard would weigh himself with his bandolier of 17 pistols and 2 swords. Ruth would have special hunting trips where he'd get the forces of nature behind him. No matter how strong, axes and sledgehammers are special weights because they are longated and take a special kind of grace. I can lift three hundred pounds, but even I was humbled upon my first touch of a big hammer! Ruth would also eat plenty of onions to combat ailments, and he'd offer them to the elderly as "cold killers". Ruth was more than a blubbery eyed ball player, he was fit very often and had a pair of rippling calves and arms and chest. I suggest many of the interesting pictures of him, you'd be surprised how many people have no idea what Ruth REALLY looks like.
I bet Custer had plenty of ripple too, you can see it right through the uniform, he also had that onion secret too, thanks to what I've read around here. My sickly mother eats plenty of onion too, that keeps her around longer and really fights her mild case of Lupus. Ruth's experiences helped save her life and continue to be a blessing to her. You can't get that from modern athletes, none of them have that secret innovation.
Out of intense curiousity, can any one relate how Indians define villainy amongst themselves and others? And are there any notable Indian villains that have been reported from within the tribes? As with all things, there are good and bad, but every Indian I read up on comes out "good". Are historians just jerking around with political correctness or do Indians have no definition for villainy?
Do Indians report any nasty tribe leaders within their realm or do they hold back on speaking the negative of fellow tribesmen? Are historians sitting on any documents of Indians speaking ill of each other? Surely, if we have heroics like Geronimo, then we need villains SOMEWHERE, so where can I find the bad ones if they are mentioned at all?
Forgive me if I'm looking for dirt, but I want to know how they reason and distinguish.
I look at the drunken treaty signers and 'hang around the fort' types as villains.