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Post by Scout on Apr 2, 2007 15:13:12 GMT -6
And then there is the other reason for all not to smile...bad teeth. Seriously, how many famous people had horrific teeth? Calhoun, we know, had a gold tooth in front. What were Lincoln's teeth like, or Grants or Annie Oakley? It was a given back then. There is the serious look for that purpose and then the 'keep your mouth closed' to hide a missing tooth. Dentistry was horrible back then.
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 3, 2007 1:56:54 GMT -6
..and it must have hurt like hell... so you propably didnt go to dentist until your brains were exploding from pain... I never thought about the old photos like that, no one really smiles or anything so the teeth would be showing inthe old pictures.
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Post by elisabeth on Apr 3, 2007 3:17:15 GMT -6
Good point. It's even true in painted portraits; no-one exposes their teeth.
Michael: good stuff! There's one lurking bit of female DNA that no-one like to admit to, which is pro-war: the bit that has them urging on their menfolk to go. (Think of the white feathers handed out in WW1, etc.) We've suppressed it somewhat nowadays in our society where formal war is concerned, but you still see it surface in street or pub brawls: the old "are you going to let him say that to me?"/"go on, get him" dialogue that's been going on since time began.
Would you accept the argument that gossip is a survival mechanism? Women, being physically weaker, had to evolve ways of defending themselves by reading and decoding the behaviour of others; and it's to the benefit of the group if the perceptions of one are shared with all. It's also a form of social control, as has been mentioned on another thread: if a certain kind of behaviour makes you the subject of gossip and ridicule, you'll tend to refrain from it. (Or keep it very, very secret!) Well, that's my excuse, anyway ... It's in the DNA!
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 3, 2007 6:36:14 GMT -6
Back when those photos were taken the exposure time was quite long. It would be very difficult to hold a "smile" for that long a period.
Since Indians didn't eat processed food, especially sugar, I would think their teeth would not be as decayed as those that did. That's not to say they didn't have teeth knocked out in their physical lifestyle . . . but rotting teeth may not have been an issue.
Just an opinion though.
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Post by elisabeth on Apr 3, 2007 7:41:24 GMT -6
That's probably true. They ate sugar when they could get it -- I read somewhere that the Comanches would put half a cup of sugar into a single cup of coffee! -- but their teeth must on the whole have been better than whites'. And needed to be, as they used them for things like softening leather as well as just eating. But if the convention among whites was not to smile for the camera, no white photographer would be likely to think of saying "smile!" when photographing an Indian. He'd pursue the same practice as with white subjects, and just go for a "likeness", I'd have thought.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 3, 2007 7:49:52 GMT -6
If an Indian smiled for a photo it would ruin the "image" of the dour, stoic Red Man. Who wanted to see a happy Indian . . . it would make them look human!
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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 3, 2007 10:31:59 GMT -6
Elisabeth-
“…one lurking bit of female DNA that no-one like to admit to, which is pro-war…” ‘…"are you going to let him say that to me?"/"go on, get him"…’
That may, in fact, be a part of the original (caveman) scenario: “Are you going to lie there in front of the fire all day? The children are hungry. Get off your butt, grab that spear and HUNT!” or, “They’re after the crops/herds! The children will go hungry. Get off your butt, grab that spear and FIGHT!” Women are very big on the stability of the structure within the society or group to which they belong. Even if the group is only two people. It’s the same logic behind the present day pub/bar fight or street fight. In effect, a threat or challenge to the structure has been advanced and must be dealt with. Women want reassurances. “Am I in fact, secure with YOU in charge? Or will I have to see to it myself?” Now, Boadicea! - she was MY kind of woman!
“Would you accept the argument that gossip is a survival mechanism?”
I absolutely, 100% WOULD accept. And, here’s a little secret. (Lean close, I’ll whisper it. Don’t want the other guys to hear me admit it) Men use gossip every bit as much as women do. Yes, I meant to say, ‘USE’ gossip. As a tool. It’s often called ‘back fighting’ when men do it. The methods are the same, however the motives are slightly different. I think women simply want to know what everyone is doing or is up to. “Is something going on that threatens the structure of my group?” The little nuggets of information empower them to perhaps, exert some control over the group’s situation, and to redirect it so that they feel more secure.
Men are looking to empower themselves also, but men want to be THE top dog. To be in charge. To redirect the group in a way that they also think keeps it secure. And, “If I can keep it secure, then I can keep my job.” Besides, if you’re giving the orders then you can stay by the fire warming your feet while others do the heaviest of the lifting. Additionally, you might just gain a small advantage of privilege to, shall we say, secure your DNA’s survival by spreading it around a bit? Men seem to have just enough intuition of their own to sense how formidable a threat to their power women are with that natural, DNA bestowed talent. What men have missed is that women - mostly - don’t want the job. “Why do ANY of the heavy lifting?” Or, stand in the direct line of fire? Women are too smart for that. “Who would care for the children?”
“…had to evolve ways of defending themselves by reading and decoding the behaviour of others…”
YES! Again, I agree 100%. In my employments, I have been a manager at one level or another for over 30 years. I have ALWAYS chosen, as my #1, a female, and kept her happy in that roll. (Please DON’T read anything what-so-ever into that statement beyond, in a ‘professional’ sense. Believe me, it has always led to MUCH gossip in the past) Women’s intuition is what they call it, and it has never ceased to amaze me as to how reliable it can be. Mathematically beyond mere chance or guess work.
“…if a certain kind of behaviour makes you the subject of gossip and ridicule, you'll tend to refrain from it (Or keep it very, very secret!)…”
Yes. AND - work diligently to hone your skill at hiding it. That’s where I fall back on #1’s intuition and advice again. I have rarely landed far from the mark because of that advice. To be honest, when I have fallen short, my #1 (whoever she was at the time) has always had the humbling decency not to say, “Well, I told you so.” (Not with words anyway) That mode of operation doesn’t make me particularly clever. Male dominated societies have from the earliest times, utilized women or a particular woman for their/her highly esteemed counsel. Ancient Greece, Rome and many other early European societies did so. I would bet it was little different among the Native American cultures. I would also bet that the warriors got an ear full before AND after they met at the council fire. “Well? What did you decide? You’re going to do WHAT? After what I told you JUST last night? Fine. Let the children go hungry! Guess who won’t be under your buffalo robes tonight!” Did Indians have sofas?
That brings us to the other little secret. (Lean VERY close this time) Men only THINK that they are in charge. Women KNOW differently - its in their damned DNA to know, after all.
M
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 3, 2007 10:38:24 GMT -6
BrokenSword... I'm very curious, what is your profession? You gotta be writer...arent you?
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 3, 2007 11:09:10 GMT -6
Frank said : "BrokenSword..........you gotta be a writer, arn't you?"
BrokenSword: If you're not, you outta be !! You've entertained me ! Between you and Gordie, I could laugh all day!
Bab
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Post by elisabeth on Apr 3, 2007 11:37:34 GMT -6
Me too! Lovely stuff.
M, I wish some of my bosses had been of your mind! They were happy enough to seek advice, but, alas, not to take it. Still, I suppose it gave me the opportunity to hone another female art, that of saying "I told you so" without uttering a word ...
Interesting that when women are overtly in charge, they often tend to be more militaristic and ruthless than their male equivalents. You mentioned Boadicea; there's Bloody Mary, with her pogroms ... Elizabeth I, with the defeat of the Armada, state-sponsored piracy, secret police, and the start of Empire ... Victoria, who must have presided over more wars than most other monarchs put together ... Golda Meir ... Margaret Thatcher ... Perhaps it's another aspect of the nurturing thing, the proverbial "tigress protecting her cubs". But I'm not convinced. I suspect that female DNA has total ruthlessness built in. Has to, really; again, the survival impulse. Concepts like "honour" and "chivalry" are the luxuries of the male; women are down-and-dirty take-no-prisoners streetfighters at heart. (Maybe that's why men felt they had to subjugate them?!?) It's intriguing -- bringing us back to Custer's West -- that it was only the white men who felt that capture by the Indians was "a fate worse than death". Women were much more pragmatic about it, and just got on with it it. They might be regarded as "soiled doves" when rescued, but on the whole they seemed to prefer to be alive ...!
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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 3, 2007 11:59:53 GMT -6
Frank and Bab-
No, sweet friends, not a writer. I am flattered that you would think so or suggest such.
The fact is, I have always made a living (one way or another) as an artist. Now the secret is out - I am planning a painting of 'Custer's Last Stand' - and have been for YEARS now. Of course, that is the ONE subject for a painting that will get a painter shot to pieces faster than any other, so the research has to be meticulous. Who wore what? Where were they? What happened? Which species of ants were crawling on the ground at that time of year? All had better be accurate or the critics will descend like a pack of piranha in a caffeine induced nit-picking feeding frenzy.
That 's how I came to be watching this board. Its research. LOTS of great information here, if I can sort it all out. Just when the picture emerges - boom - someone drops a piece of info that tells me, "Wait, I can't have those particular guys doing that in that place." And just that fast I’m blinded by the dust again.
But, this is not a subject that allows one to merely orbit and observe. Like a black hole, it swallows up anyone that tries to do that. So…. much like a moth that can't seem to get close enough to the light - here I am.
Thank you again,
Michael
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 3, 2007 12:11:39 GMT -6
;D ;D ;D ;D Good luck with your ambitious painting AND be sure to let us be first here on this board to see it! If you got something that youve done earlier it would be nice to see some works of yours.
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 3, 2007 12:26:14 GMT -6
Michael,
Now I really am intrigued! I also am an artist (fledging, I'm going to be the next Grandma Moses!) .
I love the different artist's renderings of 'The Battle' and I use that word 'love' advisedly. The older renderings were probably the biggest thing in the world at the time, but to look at some of them now....hmm. The one that is the most famous was done by Paxson, I guess he worked on it for twenty years.
The biggest gripe I have about the older paintings is the stilted figures portrayed. I like the ones with a lot of action, where you get a feel of frantic movement and men fighting for their lives! One I like a lot is by Elk Eber (done in 1880). There are others, some really different, like by Fritz Scholder (done in 1976, an Indian artist). I won't go into more, because I don't want to change the theme of this thread.
Wishing you wonderful luck on your endeaver!
Bab
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Post by harpskiddie on Apr 3, 2007 12:33:43 GMT -6
I did a painting of a buffalo hunt once. My instructor thought it was a dog show, or possibly a bunch of cats chasing a bunch of mice. I turned in my palette knife and Gesso.
Gordie excuse me, who has the Titanium White................................
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 3, 2007 12:54:23 GMT -6
Enough talk everyone! Lets see those works!! Pronto! ;D ;D ;D
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