Army Scouts

[clw]

Could someone explain the difference between a Quartermaster scout and an enlisted scout?

[stevewilk]

The term "scout" is often used generically to describe any civilian hired by the Quartermaster to serve as a scout and/or guide. They were usually paid more than the common soldier for their services and were put on the payroll as Quartermaster employees.

Enlisted scouts were Indians recruited as scouts to often operate as independent units (The North Bros. Pawnee Battalion, John Bullis' Seminole-Negro Scouts, and the various Apache Scout companies under Gatewood, Rucker and others) and were paid the same as enlisted soldiers. Later in the period Indian scouts received their own dress uniforms, guidons and insignia.

I don't know the context of your question but off the top of my head checking any books, that is my take.

[clw]

Got it, thanks! One was a civilian under contract, and the other a soldier.

[conz]

clw said:

Got it, thanks! One was a civilian under contract, and the other a soldier.

That's an interesting statement...can we consider Indian Scouts to be "Soldiers?" Did they go through Army basic training? I do think that they learned some cavalry formations, but just for parades...I don't think that they used any of them in the field, or used Army tactics.

So I wouldn't call them American Soldiers...I'd call them "hired guns," or "guides" if you will. More "contractors" than the Regular Army units, although they did have a more formal organization than the normal Native guides that we used...so they are somewhere in a category between simple local guides and regular Soldiers.

Now the Philippine Scouts are very different. They were Regular Army permanent units, trained just like American Soldiers in every way. So I'd call them American Soldiers, professionals like all other Army units.

Clair

[clw]

I only meant they were in the army. They signed enlistment papers and swore an oath of loyalty to the United States. They held the rank of private, a few even higher. They were paid the same. They were issued uniforms and weapons. The definition of a soldier is another matter, eh?

[mcaryf]

Bob-tailed Bull had three stripes and was treated as a sergeant and Soldier had two stripes.

Regards

Mike

[stevewilk]

Conz, there was no "basic training" per se during the Indian War period. An enlistee might spend four weeks or so at Jefferson or Columbus Barracks for some rudimentary drill; then off to their respective regiments. Some I think just enlisted at the nearest army post. More often than not for infantry at least, they spent most of their day as laborers, leaving little time for tactical training at least until the Indian wars subsided some.

Col. Gibbon used an interesting method to "swear in" his Crow scouts, having them touch the tip of a hunting knife with their index fingers, thereby pledging obedience. When one of the Crows wanted to exact the same pledge from the officer swearing them in, they were informed it didn't work that way. The officer offered to pledge to the Crows all the pay and rations they were entitled to, and then touched the knife.

As to them not being soldiers, Apaches, for instance, were "foot" Indians for the most part. They did not need cavalry tactics. More often than not, the scouts tactics were more successful anyway which is why they often operated independently.

Apparently Capt. Emmett Crawford thought them "soldiers". On 10 Jan 1886 along the Aros River, Sonora, his scout company was attacked by Mexican irregulars. Shouting from upon a rock, Crawford screamed, "Soldados Estados Unidos..." (United States soldiers). Not "United States Hired Guns".

The Phillipine Scouts had nothing to do with the Indian Wars. Different era.

[clw]

Conz, there was no "basic training" per se during the Indian War period. An enlistee might spend four weeks or so at Jefferson or Columbus Barracks for some rudimentary drill; then off to their respective regiments.

Steve ~ Duck, cover and grin. Them's fightin' words to Claire.

BTW, the 250 or so Crows allied with Crook -- what was their status?

[conz]

mcaryf said:

Bob-tailed Bull had three stripes and was treated as a sergeant and Soldier had two stripes.

Regards

Mike

I'm betting than a Native Soldier Sergeant could not "boss" the Regular Army privates. That rank probably only applied within their own organization.

Clair

[conz]

clw said:

Conz, there was no "basic training" per se during the Indian War period. An enlistee might spend four weeks or so at Jefferson or Columbus Barracks for some rudimentary drill; then off to their respective regiments.

Steve ~ Duck, cover and grin. Them's fightin' words to Claire.

Oh no...not at all. I fully agree with Steve...but that initial period still was "basic training," which means to begin putting the aura of the professional Soldier on a new recruit. The parts about learning to shoot or ride or work a tank are very secondary...the units will hone that. What you need to learn first is discipline, following your NCOs, and customs of the service.

BTW, the 250 or so Crows allied with Crook -- what was their status?

I think they would be called "allies," in military theory.

Clair

[clw]

Sorry, Claire. I misunderstood you.

As to the Apache scouts, I don't know much about their history. Is that scene in the film Geronimo (Wes Studi) where they're are arrested and sent east to prison accurate?

[crzhrs]

All the Apaches of Geronimo's tribe were sent off to prison, even the ones who worked with the military or were not involved in any raiding. They were classified as POWs up until 1912 and finally were released to settle in Oklahoma rather than Arizona. (Imagine POWs right in the US as late as 1912!)

I believe there may be at least one of those Indians still alive!

[rch]

When the awards of Medals of Honor were reviewed the civilian scouts including Buffalo Bill lost their medals, but enlisted Indian scouts retained theirs.

rch

[stevewilk]

clw said:

Sorry, Claire. I misunderstood you.

As to the Apache scouts, I don't know much about their history. Is that scene in the film Geronimo (Wes Studi) where they're are arrested and sent east to prison accurate?

Actually, very little of the Wes Studi movie was accurate. However I think it was based on an historical novel and not so much on fact. The movie was full of flaws such as:

Lt. Britton Davis, (Matt Damon) is portrayed as a "shavetail" assigned to the 6th Cavalry, when he reports to Lt. Gatewood. In actuality, Davis graduated West Point in 1881 and was assigned to the 3rd Cavalry, not the Sixth. He served in Wyoming before transfer to Arizona where he, along with Capt. Emmet Crawford, also of the Third, were appointed as Indian agents at San Carlos after General Crook assumed command in 1882. Both these men wanted to teach the Apaches to raise livestock to support themselves. However, the Indian Bureau, in its infinite wisdom, insisted on converting them to farmers, sending seed and plows. Davis managed to keep his Apaches on their reservation until his regiment was transferred to Texas in 1885. He resigned his commission in June 1886 to manage a mining operation in Chihuahua.

Lt. Charles Gatewood (Jason Patric)(?) was a rail of a man. Tall, lanky and sickly with a moustache and big nose. He didn't wear his hair long like in the movie. He was a Virginian, West Point class of 1877. From gradutation on he was on duty almost continuously with Indian scouts. He participated in General Crook's Sierra Madre Expedition of 1883. After promotion to 1st Lt. in 1886 he was transferred to New Mexico where he commanded Navajo scouts, whom he deemed useless compared to the White Mountain Apaches.

Gatewood returned to arrange the final surrender of Geronimo's band later that year at the request of Gen. Miles, who replaced Crook. What happened to Gatewood was unfortunate; he was basically snubbed, credit given to Capt. Henry Lawton and Surgeon Leonard Wood and the 4th Cavalry for the final capture of the wily Apache. He and Davis never teamed up to find Geronimo.

Unlike the movie, he was not "banished" to Wyoming after the surrender. He was rewarded with a positon as Miles' aide-de-camp, with a cushy office in Santa Monica. He held this position through 1890 when the 6th took part in the Ghost Dance operations.
His fate was unfortunate one. Already in ill health, he was crippled in an explosion combating a fire at Ft. McKinney WY as part of the Johnson County War in 1892. Unfortunately for him, he was labeled as a "Crook man" by the Miles and 4th officers. Even though he fell out of favor with Crook for standing up for Indian rights. Gatewood did not learn "politics". He was a man of integrity above all. That cost him advancement in a highly political military establishment. He p-o'd both Crook and Miles. Gatewood applied for the Medal of Honor; Miles endorsed it. He was denied, for he did not distinguish himself in combat. (Never mind that an Ordnance Sgt. at Ft. Laramie(?) earned the medal simply for thiry years' service.) He died a young man of 43, still a lieutenant after nineteen years in the army. The country finally honored him in death with burial at Arlington National Cemetery. He was born on April 6 (which is tomorrow) 1853 in Woodstock VA. I happen to share his birthday ;D

More flaws in the Studi movie:

Al Seiber was not present at the Cibicue mutiny. The Dept. of Arizona was commanded at that time by Col Orlando Willcox, 12th Infantry. It was due to the deteriorating situation there that Crook was returned in 1882. By the way, Sheridan requested that Gibbon's 7th Infantry replace the 12th in Arizona. His request was denied. Anyway Crook was no where near Arizona when Cibicue went down. He was in command of Dept. of the Platte in Omaha. He did not quit the army over mistreatment of Apaches. He simply was tired of dealing with them and wanted out, being at odds with Sheridan.

The Cibicue mutiny of 1881 evoked mistrust in Apache scouts. Three of the White Mtn. mutineers were court martialled and hanged at Ft. Grant. Indeed among the Chiricahua scouts, many were ex-hostiles. Today's hostile would often become tomorrow's "friendly" and vice versa. Only the Chiricahuas were deported to sunny Florida. Removal of all of them was seen as the solution to end once and for all the "annual Apache stampede". General Miles is often maligned as the betrayer of the scouts; truth is he put his career on the line and likely kept Geronimo's neck out of a noose. Their removal was ordered by Gen. Sheridan by order of President Cleveland. And if the Arizona marshalls got hold of "Jerome" he would have swung from the gallows.

Many of the remaining Chiricahuas settled in Oklahoma eventually. Some returned to the southwest, settling at the Mescalero reservation in New Mexico.

As for the scouts, I would call them "auxilliaries"....vital components to an army in that era. Seems to me anyway that the Apache scouts were the best of the best with regard to Indian scouts. Better organized, trained, etc.

[markland]

conz said:

clw said:

Got it, thanks! One was a civilian under contract, and the other a soldier.

That's an interesting statement...can we consider Indian Scouts to be "Soldiers?" Did they go through Army basic training? I do think that they learned some cavalry formations, but just for parades...I don't think that they used any of them in the field, or used Army tactics.

So I wouldn't call them American Soldiers...I'd call them "hired guns," or "guides" if you will. More "contractors" than the Regular Army units, although they did have a more formal organization than the normal Native guides that we used...so they are somewhere in a category between simple local guides and regular Soldiers.

Now the Philippine Scouts are very different. They were Regular Army permanent units, trained just like American Soldiers in every way. So I'd call them American Soldiers, professionals like all other Army units.

Clair

Conz, whether they went thru basic training or not, Indian scouts are classified and shown as enrolled in the U.S. Regular Army (see, I can capitalize too!).

Or in plain English, enlisted scouts were/are regular Army enlistees.

Billy