Would Ben teen have saved Custer?

[Tony]

I'm new here, but here is an old question that still is interesting.
If Benteen advanced rapidly and obeyed Custer's order to "come quick" would he have arrived in time and saved Custer? Here are three scienerios that may have taken place.
1) Benteen attackes the warriors from their rear coming from Weir Hill area. The warriors panic and rertreat to the village to collect the non-coms and disperse. There is some statements from warriors who assert this to be true. Betenn saves the day!
2) Benteen attackes, the warriors retreat momentarily ( as when C troop attacked down from the ridge only to be surrounded), then they realize that they now have Benteen in the trap too, close the door and destroy Bentenn along with Custer.
3) Benteen reaches Custer and enlightens him about Reno, and both break out toward Reno Hill.

[scout]

Tony,

I gotta go with door number 2...Benteen would have had a last stand as well. I think the Indians would have surrounded him as well..I doubt seriously if they would have fled the field, remember they had chewed Crook's forces up the week before in a head-on attack..I don't think Benteen's small force would have stood a chance against those numbers....number 3 is out of the question.....Custer had casualties and I don't think they could have moved wounded under such conditions.

Scout

[Tony]

Scott,
I agree. I think Benteen's inital charge would have cause some panic to the warriors to the south of Calhoun Hill, but probably would have had no affect to the warriors coming out of Deep Ravine--although, there was some testimony given by warriors that if Benteen would have attacked, they would have departed the battlefield--we'll never know for sure!

[guidon7]

It would likely depend on how much of Custer's command remained alive when Benteen rode into sight, but definitely a plus for Custer, at least for the moment. Also would Benteen have brought the ammunition packs, as ordered? Custer might have had the better part of 8 companies then. Remember, that when Benteen approached Reno Hill, the Indians backed off for a time. That scenario would also have been likely if Benteen had joined Custer as well -- a welcomed respite to plan the next move. I have always believed that Custer's written order to Benteen to join him was one Benteen should have obeyed. At the Reno Court of Inquiry, the Recorder asked Benteen just that: Should a subordinate officer obey the command of his superior? The usually glib Benteen started to answer, then hesitated in mid-sentence and changed his reply to "I believed Custer to be dead when I received that message."

I think Long Hair was still on his feet at this point.

[Tony]

Here's a thought that I would like some response to. If Benteen attackes from the warrior's rear (from Luce or cartwright), they momentarily retreat. Bentenn now reaches Calhoun Hill. There are few wounded at this point due to the long range fighting still going on. Due to his arrival, he precludes the right wing from being over-run. How? Well the warriors that did attack from the southwest now do not attack because of added soldier strength. Benteen now deploys his troops (100 plus) and fills in the famous gap between c co. and LSH (the gap that Crazy Horse saw and used for his attack). Now Crazy Horse cannot not attack a gap that is no longer there. Bentenn does in fact suscefully prevent the disinegration of the right wing! Custer now defends the rigde in strength.
The question now becomes, how long could they have held out--on the ridge in plain view. Would Custer now have repeated his Civil War record by leading a "break-out " charge, as he did in one battle in the Civil war ( I forget what battle is was at the moment--I have to research this to come up with the name). At that point there may have been very few wounded. As we know, Custer was a man of action, I doubt he would have lingered long in defense, now haveing additional troopers--although he did in reality stay in defense until his demise--if in fact he was still alive and not dispatched early in the fighting. Does Benteen say the day?

[weir]

If you look carefully at the chronology of the battle, if Benteen had followed the orders to "be quick", he would have arrived at Medicine Tail Coulee around 15h30. Custer would have not engaged the majority of the warriors...

Then Benteen arrived at 16h10 on Reno Hill. The situation at the time was well for Custer's battalion, engaging Indians on Calhoun Hill. Attacked from the rear, the Indians woud have fled, and Custer's left wing, scouting the north ford at the time, would have been able to capture the civilians.

Nobody will know for sure, but a point is certain : Benteen gave no chance for Custer's battalion to survive. His false statements at the Reno's Court of Inquiry is evidences he knew what he did.

[Son of a Cavalryman]

Let's say Reno continued his attack into the village, and Benteen hurried on to Custer leaving the train to follow. Reno would have been wiped out, Benteen would have joined Custer in death, and the mule train might have gotten away while the Indians were mopping up. Chances are they would have been overtaken on their way to the Rosebud and killed to a man. Talk about last stands, we'd have had three to write about!

SOACM

[crzhrs]

Considering that a week earlier far less warriors stymied Crook at the Rosebud with more soldiers than Custer . . . Benteen may have caused some casualties, but in the end would have joined Custer's command dead on the ridge. The warriors then would have gone back to Reno, mopped him up, discovered the pack trains, which would have been easy pickings, gotten more ammunition and would have been able to fight and hold out longer than they did.

All in all the 7th was lucky that Benteen/Reno survived.

[weir]

crzhrs said:

Considering that a week earlier far less warriors stymied Crook at the Rosebud with more soldiers than Custer . . . Benteen may have caused some casualties, but in the end would have joined Custer's command dead on the ridge. The warriors then would have gone back to Reno, mopped him up, discovered the pack trains, which would have been easy pickings, gotten more ammunition and would have been able to fight and hold out longer than they did.

All in all the 7th was lucky that Benteen/Reno survived.

Actually Crook's soldiers won the battle of the Rosebud. At the end of the day, the Indians fled. But for an unexplainable reason, Crook decided to retreat to Wyoming. His decision made the "victory of Rosebud" into the "defeat of Rosebud" for US soldiers.

Of 1'300 soldiers, 10 dead and 21 wounded. Indians, 750 warriors, suffered 36 dead and 100 wounded.

Some authors claimed that Indians impressed Crook and halted his advance. Crook has never been whiped out anyway, and his decision to fall back in Goose Creek, Wyoming, is very strange.

See www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1382.html

They say "Crook's badly hit column" : a column of 1'000 soldiers and 262 scouts, hit by Indians in a battle where soldiers suffered 10 dead and 21 wounded. "Badly hit" ? 3% of the column out of combat ?

Rosebud was a tactical victory for soldiers but, because of Crook's decision, a strategical victory for Indians.

[guidon7]

I wish to elaborate further on West's comments on Benteen's behavior. At the Reno Court of Inquity he was asked the direct question "Do you not believe it is the duty of a subordinate to come to the aid of his commanding officer when so ordered?" Under oath, Benteen finally replied "When I received this message (Come on, be quick bring packs) I believed Custer to be dead." Yet Trumpeter Martini, when he delivered the message, told Benteen that the Indians were "skedaddling". And Benteen believed Custer dead? The Court should have pursued Benteen on this anomaly, but didn't. The RCOI was a whitewash, pure and simple. Reading it, one doesn't know who to believe.

[weir]

guidon7 said:

I wish to elaborate further on West's comments on Benteen's behavior. At the Reno Court of Inquity he was asked the direct question "Do you not believe it is the duty of a subordinate to come to the aid of his commanding officer when so ordered?" Under oath, Benteen finally replied "When I received this message (Come on, be quick bring packs) I believed Custer to be dead." Yet Trumpeter Martini, when he delivered the message, told Benteen that the Indians were "skedaddling". And Benteen believed Custer dead? The Court should have pursued Benteen on this anomaly, but didn't. The RCOI was a whitewash, pure and simple. Reading it, one doesn't know who to believe.

Look in Louise Barnett's Touched by fire (292-293) : Martini never said to Benteen Indians were "skedaddling" : Martini was an italian born, and had not a good knowledge in english. Do you imagine him telling the word "skedaddling" ? As a foreigner, I could say that I never heard this word before I began my study of LBh, and so did Martini.
During the Reno's Court of Inquiry, Martini testified he told Benteen "I think General Custer has made a charge through the village".

The difference of meaning is the explanation why Benteen lied. By saying "skedaddling", Benteen could say he had not reason to hurry. In reality, he did have.

[Son of a Cavalryman]

If Crook's fight on the Rosebud was a victory, I'll eat his hat. Unless you know where it is, you need to pull your head outa your own hat and read it all again. Crook invaded, the Indians attacked, Crook fled. The Indians won. Then they defeated the 7th Cavalry.

Son of a Cavalryman

[weir]

Son said:

If Crook's fight on the Rosebud was a victory, I'll eat his hat. Unless you know where it is, you need to pull your head outa your own hat and read it all again. Crook invaded, the Indians attacked, Crook fled. The Indians won. Then they defeated the 7th Cavalry.

Son of a Cavalryman

Crook's decision is unexplainable. He was able to go further but he refused. There is no evidence to support his decision. Indians had fled the battlefield at the end of the day, and the soldiers had suffered of very light losses - 30 men out of combat, of 1'300 ! A skirmish !

Your summarize doesn't change this point. Argue for the contrary, or eat your hat.

[Son of a Cavalryman]

West;
I think you will find most historians consider it a defeat of the U.S. Army. Crook didn't have any more stomache for facing the Indians. He chickened out and ran away. You want some salt for that hat?

Son of a Cavalryman

[shatonska]

i think there is a great probabilty of a different outcome for the battle with reno not retreating from the wood , the arrival of custer on the ridge above the coulee could have convinced the indians to retreat instead of fighting ,
instead the disastrous route of reno gave confidence and convinced the indians they could destroy the soldiers , benteen arrival to custer was a logical combat move but benteen was on a bird wathcing trip that day , but his arrival with the disaster of reno probably would have caused a worse disaster to the 7nth cavalry