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Post by nightshepherd on Jun 22, 2005 22:42:22 GMT -6
G'day fellas By the term courageous, I mean to stick ones head above the parapit and expose it to fire, esp such a touchy subject as this one and to be honest I don't neccesarily agree with Dr Fox either. It is my belief that most fought to the last and aquitted themselves well against insurmountable odds. A mate of mine asked the other day about the gatlings they had with them, do you think that they would have made a difference? Would it have made the difference if Reno had indeed charged the camp? The old indian didn't like the sabre very much, yes I know none of them had their sabres with them, except Custer or is that false history too. As for Dr Fox, things on the 7th are rare to get hold of here....kind of like rocking horse dodo...Iam more than happy to learn that he is wrong. Cheers Troy
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Post by Tricia on Jun 23, 2005 1:26:40 GMT -6
G'day fellas By the term courageous, I mean to stick ones head above the parapit and expose it to fire, esp such a touchy subject as this one and to be honest I don't neccesarily agree with Dr Fox either. It is my belief that most fought to the last and aquitted themselves well against insurmountable odds. A mate of mine asked the other day about the gatlings they had with them, do you think that they would have made a difference? Would it have made the difference if Reno had indeed charged the camp? The old indian didn't like the sabre very much, yes I know none of them had their sabres with them, except Custer or is that false history too. As for Dr Fox, things on the 7th are rare to get hold of here....kind of like rocking horse dodo...Iam more than happy to learn that he is wrong. Cheers Troy G'day, Troy-- I was starting to think only Scout and I were left behind, at Camp Supply, so to speak. But to answer your questions--Custer refused the Gatlings offered to him (apparently Reno had all kinds of problems with his during his scout), nor did the Seventh head into posterity with their sabres. The common reason is that in a stealth campaign, they made a certain amount of nosie, but realistically, when faced with an enemy that would probably scatter, what good would a close-combat weapon do? At the last moments of life left to Armstrong, he might have rethought the sabre decision, but my belief is that he was probably too busy dying. From my few personal experiences with Dr. Fox, in person, his arguments are difficult to deny. He tells an awfully compelling story--and I am sure he'll wow several battle students at Saturday's CBHMA seminar. We wouldn't be anywhere without the amateur archaelogists of the 19th Century--and on that account, I think he is correct. But logistically, I can't see Deep Ravine and the action there (if there was any significant action) as anything more than an 'on the way to' Reno type of thing. I think Scout and all are correct that if a 'last stand' sort of thing occurring in Deep Ravine doesn't appear in the Native American retellings, it didn't happen. My money is still on Mike Donahue's Ford D theory/Cemetary Ridge skirmish as well as, following the tragedy near-abouts Last Stand Hill, a desperate rump battalion of sorts trying to report to their new commander, Marcus Reno, but getting mowed down on the way and in Deep Ravine. Hoka hey! Leyton McLean
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Post by nightshepherd on Jun 23, 2005 3:07:23 GMT -6
Yes it is interesting to note that the 7th left Fort Lincoln with their sabres, but left them along the way at a fort....can't remember which one...but F Troop kept theirs but alas it was on the mule train. Hindsight is a marvellous things. As for the Gats, they were infamous for jaming once they got hot....can't change barrels like on the 60. So has anyone taken a real good look at cemetary ridge...no not Gettysberg.. it would be interesting to run a cadeaver dog around the field to see.... Thanks for talking to me guys really do appreciate it.. Troy
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 23, 2005 9:14:27 GMT -6
The sabers were discarded and packed up at the Powder River supply depot, if I recall correctly. Where did you get the info that F company kept theirs? Far as I know only DeRudio and Mathey(?) retained sabers...after all, there had to be a few handy to slay any rattlesnakes slithering through camp....
The day of the saber charge had passed by 1876. This weapon was useless in Indian fighting for the most part. Even though troops continued to train with the weapon, it served more as an ornament for ceremonial purposes. It was, after all, the iconic weapon of the cavalryman.
As far Galtings or artillery, I wonder why the army seemed to abandon the use of artillery on the frontier after the Civil War. The volunteers who fought out west during the Civil War years routinely relied on howitzers or cannons; Sibley and Sully's operations against the Sioux in 1863-64, which included some huge battles, numbers wise, being a case in point. Col. Nelson Miles was one commander who advocated artillery on the plains during the 1866-90 period.
The Gatlings were used mainly to guard supply depots. Give the small detachments there some added firepower. I've wondered also about rockets, which had been around for several decades; the British used them against the Zulus, the US army against the Seminoles, for example. What if the 7th had had some rockets? Perhaps the Lakota would have simply enjoyed the fireworks show along with their victory.
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 23, 2005 9:21:42 GMT -6
Steve; I think the LBH battle is the exception to the rule. Sabers would have been very useful during that close quarter melee. Many, many, troopers died at the hands of warriors carrying bow-spears and war clubs. Sabers could have done some good work that day.
Walt
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 23, 2005 9:34:50 GMT -6
Walt, I'm not so sure about that....the saber was meant to be used on horseback. It was a slashing, attacking weapon. Not a defensive weapon, and a weapon is only as effective as the one using it. Those clumsy things are hard to wield...I have a replica 1860 saber; I'm a big guy at 6'5"/240. I get a heck of a forearm workout from just waving that thing around. Can you imagine a wiry 140 pound trooper trying to swing that thing?
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Post by nightshepherd on Jun 23, 2005 19:03:59 GMT -6
G'day again I will have to try to catch up to you all one night... Sorry but I got my wires crossed with F troop, though the two officers did indeed have theirs with the pack train. I do agree with Mr Cross and think that the sabre would have been of use, I think the sabre you are using is the old wrist breaker....and those do indeed weigh a ton, but didn't they change to the light Dragoon sabre after the war? I seem to remember rading that some place. That is a hell of alot easier to swing both from horseback and on the ground and Iam 5ft 11 and 11 stone so hardly a big fella. But as an interesting point, alot of British officers at Waterloo used the 1796 pattern cav sword as it was a better blade than the infantry model. Cheers Troy
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 24, 2005 9:25:42 GMT -6
Okay, I'm gonna butt in here and bring out a legend if you will, that I am foggy about. Was there not a theory/legend that a large number of soldiers broke loose from the main battle, were pursued and engaged in the northern foothills of Wolf Mountain, and killed to the last man by the pursuing warriors? How many men is it that they cannot locate, 28 or so? That's nearly an entire field company. Enlighten me oh wise ones!
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Post by Scout on Jun 24, 2005 11:14:19 GMT -6
Walt,
I've heard that crazy story but can't find the source....can someone enlighten me? I think it is the next ''new myth'', I also think it is complete nonsense but sure would like to know who has evidence on this....Can't think of one legit Indian account that speaks about this.
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 24, 2005 11:27:21 GMT -6
Maybe its an Indian secret. ;D I will say I don't think this is a "new" legend however.
Walt
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 24, 2005 14:13:48 GMT -6
Re: Sabers
I think the the last thing soldiers wanted was to be in hand-to-hand combat with Indians. The warriors were trained from childhood to use spears, lances, tomahawks, knifes, etc., how to wrestle, and were far more nimble and quicker than most troops.
The sabers would have made the march far more difficult for the soldiers, unless they were packed away, then unpacked at the moment of attack, which would have been a time-consuming process.
The saber/sword was great for Errol Flynn but would have been useless in most battles with Indians.
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 24, 2005 15:59:05 GMT -6
But not in this one.
Walt
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 24, 2005 21:46:46 GMT -6
Problem with the saber is that you had to stand erect or be mounted to wield it effectively... which means exposing yourself to fire. If the sabers were attached to the saddle, a dismounted trooper would not be able to get to in anyway if his mount was stampeded. Even if the men had their sabers, an Indian warrior could simply string an arrow in his bow and "twhack"... no need to get close enough for the saber to be used.
Bayonets would have been more effective than sabers during the hand to hand.
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 24, 2005 22:12:29 GMT -6
That's moot point, cavalry didn't carry bayonets. I don't care how unhandy it was, if an Indian is coming with a warclub or tomahawk and all I have is an empty revolver, I'll take a saber anytime. Bows and arrows were primarily used for arcing fire rather than close in combat. That's why the bows often had spear heads.
Walt
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Post by nightshepherd on Jun 25, 2005 1:46:02 GMT -6
I agree with Walt, if they had the sabres there Iam sure Custer would have made the charge and maintained an offensive nature which cav is its best at , not a defensive position that was assumed at Custer's hill. At Washita he used sabres and attacked at dawn, the other thing that puzzles me is why he attacked so late in the day, where a night attack or one at dawn would have been more appropriate. how far from the battlefield is Wolf Mountain, sometimes there is an element of truth to some legends, would be interesting to have a look. Cheers Troy
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