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Post by Lawtonka on Apr 18, 2006 17:25:46 GMT -6
Lame White Man led a charge on men of Company C near Greasy Grass Ridge and just south of Deep RavineNoisy Walking, another casualty of the Cheyenne warriors from the Lame White Man Charge.
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JoeG
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by JoeG on Jul 4, 2016 13:18:58 GMT -6
Hi all,
Trying to piece together the action at Finley Finckle ridge. The markers around the Lame White Man waymarker (two specific groupings as shown), do any of those represent Sgts Finley or Finckle?. I had assumed they may have been named on the markers.
I'm afraid I didn't catalogue these photos very well in this area, hence the confusion. The tour road also seems to dissect the area with a number of markers on the other side of the road, would these be remnants of C Company trying to make their way to Calhoun Hill?.
I'm poring through the books (and the marker map from the visitors centre which seems to be skewed slightly) to try and get this straight, any help would be appreciated here, as always thanks for your patience and knowledge.
Regards
Joe Attachments:
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Post by fred on Jul 6, 2016 6:54:08 GMT -6
Trying to piece together the action at Finley Finckle ridge. The markers around the Lame White Man waymarker (two specific groupings as shown), do any of those represent Sgts Finley or Finckle?. I had assumed they may have been named on the markers. I'm afraid I didn't catalogue these photos very well in this area, hence the confusion. The tour road also seems to dissect the area with a number of markers on the other side of the road, would these be remnants of C Company trying to make their way to Calhoun Hill?. I'm poring through the books (and the marker map from the visitors centre which seems to be skewed slightly) to try and get this straight, any help would be appreciated here, as always thanks for your patience and knowledge. I do not mean to be hawking my book, but The Strategy of Defeat at the LBH gives a pretty good, clear, concise, and precise capitulation of all the action at Finley-Fickle and the maps show where men died. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 6, 2016 7:37:43 GMT -6
Fred, Oh, go ahead and hawk the book. It's good, you have the right, besides the value of the hard back has to say something.
Regards, Tom
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JoeG
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by JoeG on Jul 6, 2016 14:39:13 GMT -6
Fred,
I have your books, reading 'Strategy' last year was the catalyst that made me do the 4 flights in one day to get there,(I used the Kindle version at the battlefield).
Your explanation in the book along with timeline U. was perfect, I think I got myself tied up in knots trying to work out whether the markers indicated a casualty either at the skirmish line, during the C Company charge or retreating back from it. I studied the Calhoun Coulee charge from various points over the course of a few days, Deep Ravine, Battle Ridge, Calhoun Hill et al. Since my visit that episode and it's consequence is really starting to come alive.
I believe Sgts Finckle and Finley are represented by 2 of the three stone markers at the Lame White Man waymarker sign. If that's wrong I hope someone will correct me.
Kind Regards
Joe
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Post by fred on Jul 6, 2016 15:44:39 GMT -6
Fred, I have your books, reading 'Strategy' last year was the catalyst that made me do the 4 flights in one day to get there,(I used the Kindle version at the battlefield). Your explanation in the book along with timeline U. was perfect, I think I got myself tied up in knots trying to work out whether the markers indicated a casualty either at the skirmish line, during the C Company charge or retreating back from it. I studied the Calhoun Coulee charge from various points over the course of a few days, Deep Ravine, Battle Ridge, Calhoun Hill et al. Since my visit that episode and it's consequence is really starting to come alive. I believe Sgts Finckle and Finley are represented by 2 of the three stone markers at the Lame White Man waymarker sign. If that's wrong I hope someone will correct me. Joe, I do not remember, though I was there only a week or so ago, about where the Lame White Man marker is. I thought it was on Battle Ridge...(?) Am I mistaken? Anyway, both Finley and Finckle should be in the middles reaches of Finley-Finckle Ridge. Some how I thought they were individually marked, but I may be mistaken. In my "fantasy musings," I have Finley at Marker 142 and Finckle at Marker 141. That puts them, basically, in the larger mass of markers on the ridge. Again, I do not remember if they are marked, specifically, but just as a guide to make things simpler for myself, I have assigned a name to every non-spurious marker and those guys got those numbers. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 7, 2016 5:33:06 GMT -6
Fred,
I do not know how much Joe knows about the marker movement over the years. Markers once located under the Visitor Center, at least one in the parking lot of the Trading Post, movement of Kellogg's and etc. Not to mention the road work and the extra markers. Our friend Chris used to obsess over the markers, as you may recall. Your work is as close to definitive as we are apt to get. I think it was Hardoff who did some good work here as well.
I also enjoyed your conclusions regarding some of the individuals detailed in "Participants"
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 7, 2016 8:04:56 GMT -6
I believe you are right Fred. The LWM marker is along the road on battle ridge.
Regards
Steve
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Post by dave on Jul 7, 2016 10:01:01 GMT -6
Fred You can't hawk something that sells itself! Regards Dave
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Jul 10, 2016 11:13:21 GMT -6
Anyway, both Finley and Finckle should be in the middles reaches of Finley-Finckle Ridge. Some how I thought they were individually marked, but I may be mistaken. In my "fantasy musings," I have Finley at Marker 142 and Finckle at Marker 141. That puts them, basically, in the larger mass of markers on the ridge. Again, I do not remember if they are marked, specifically, but just as a guide to make things simpler for myself, I have assigned a name to every non-spurious marker and those guys got those numbers. Best wishes, Fred. Location of Finley and Finckle Grave Markers. Ref: Archaeological Insights into The Custer Battle by Douglas Scott and Richard Fox. 1987 and associated map Ref: Where Custer Fell by James Brust, Brian Pohanka, Sandy Barnard. page 90-93 "Where Custer Fell" references meeting of Kanipe and Camp in which both Finley and Finckle's markers where identified by Kanipe, a fellow Company C Sargent. Pictured is a 1894 and a 1995 photo identifying the two markers. Using the Scott/Fox map of markers: Finley is GM139. Finckle is GM131. Shown in the 1894 picture is a marker that was replaced 2000 by NPS. This marker is not in the photo 1995 nor on the 1987 Scott/Fox map. This marker now makes a second group of three as in the 1894 photo, GM141, GM142, and the replaced marker. The first group of three is GM138, GM139, and GM140. Finley is GM139. Finckle is GM131. What it looks like to me. Gerry
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Post by fred on Jul 11, 2016 8:45:00 GMT -6
Location of Finley and Finckle Grave Markers.... What it looks like to me. Thanks, Gerry. I will check it out and if it makes sense I will change my work to those markers. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Jul 12, 2016 10:58:19 GMT -6
Working independently from Gerry, I also believe Gerry's assessment of markers is correct. I was surprised to look at my notes and see I assumed the specific 2 markers.
This is a micro issue, and can be a distraction. If Fred identifies a specific marker, and is off by a marker 20 feet away, Custer fanatics will say this proves all his theories on this battle false.
I am comfortable with my overall analysis of this fight, I stopped posting, I do not see where I have anything to contribute to current discussions. I am open to any meaningful discussion.
Respectfully,
WIlliam
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Post by dave on Jul 12, 2016 13:52:36 GMT -6
montrose Good to hear from you again. Missed ya. Regards Dave
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Jul 13, 2016 10:49:39 GMT -6
Working independently from Gerry, I also believe Gerry's assessment of markers is correct. I was surprised to look at my notes and see I assumed the specific 2 markers. Respectfully, WIlliam Independent corroboration is one of the keys for understanding and validation. Thanks William, Gerry
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Post by herosrest on Jul 15, 2016 15:17:28 GMT -6
DucemusThere is a history of the Lame White Man Marker here and although I am sure that most know, he lay actually down the ridge towards the river where a stone cairn marked the spot. How he got there is interesting and is partly provided by Little Hawk A John Two Moon interview (incomplete) follows it. The various maps drawn by the Moons (John and Two) help quite much to realise who was where and moving in which direction. Big Beaver's map indicates the route taken to LSH by Cheyennes with whom he rode (including White Shield) up onto Custer's Hill. When Two Moon made that sweep along Greasy Grass Ridge the Finley Finkle fight was over and he swept around LSH onto the northern flank of BR. The John Two Moon account tallies well with the later 'history' provided by Timber and Powell in respect of the hostile dismount and 'barrage' of gunfire into the troops which Varnum heard and described at RCoI. Everything afterwards was close quarter fighting.
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