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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 14, 2005 22:16:51 GMT -6
The left photo is known to be Francis Marion Gibson. The other photo is unknown. Do you think it is Gibson as a 2Lt? Walt
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Post by markland on Jun 15, 2005 7:47:10 GMT -6
Walt, just my two bits worth but, for what it is worth, I think they are the same person. Reasoning? The ears appear to be shaped the same (and I think I read in a Sherlock Holmes mystery that the ears are the first thing to look at), the jaw appears to be the same and from what I can tell, the eyes appear close. Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 15, 2005 9:06:35 GMT -6
Walt and Billy: the man on the right is not Gibson. This photo can be found in _Longknives_ by Cox & Langellier, p. 43. He is wearing the 1875 officer's blouse, 1872 forage cap, with gold cord, which was not authorized (but privately purchased and worn nonetheless) until 26 Dec 1883.
Besides, Gibson made 1st Lt. in 1871, four years before this blouse was issued. This photo in my opinion is from the mid to late 1880s.
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 15, 2005 9:25:04 GMT -6
I go with Steve on this one, Walt. Here's a picture of Gibson scanned from the Fougera book: Ciao, GAC
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Post by markland on Jun 15, 2005 9:59:04 GMT -6
GAC, does that mean I lose my Jr. Inspector Clouseau badge? Billy
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 15, 2005 10:25:27 GMT -6
GAC, does that mean I lose my Jr. Inspector Clouseau badge? Billy Mon Dieu! When I rode your post I tried to pheaun you - don't despair mon ami! It won't be easy but that is why I have alweays failed where others have succeeded! Until we meet again and the case is sol-ved, ;D GAC
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 15, 2005 10:45:46 GMT -6
Jorge'; Non, non, the case is a-sol-ved!
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 15, 2005 10:47:10 GMT -6
Okay; Then do you have an opinion of who it is?
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 15, 2005 11:30:09 GMT -6
GAC; Your pic looks retouched.
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 15, 2005 11:50:47 GMT -6
GAC; Your pic looks retouched. Yes it is, Walt. As you'll know, Katherine Gibson Fougera was Gibson's daughter. When she edited and published her mother's memoirs of her time as a 7th Cavalry officer's wife in 1942, she used photographs of her father and many of the other officers from the family album. She referred to the condition of the photos used in an Acknowledgement at the start of her book: i wish to express my appreciation to John Shanahan for so ably reproducing, from faded originals, the photographs contained in this book Obviously Mr. Shanahan lacked today's digital imaging technology - and the result is somewhat heavy handed! Regards, George
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 15, 2005 15:16:20 GMT -6
George; That makes me a little leery of using it for identification. I asked Steve over on the Sturgis thread what his source is for his pronouncements on the uniform dates.
Walt
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 15, 2005 16:09:31 GMT -6
Hi Walt, Yes, the retouching doesn't help when a picture is being used for ID-ing. I think the main retouching has been applied to the hair, eyebrows and moustache areas, the actual lines of the face - nose, chin etc., - being pretty accurate representations. In any case I think it's pretty academic, as I don't think the officer in the kepi can possibly be Gibson for these reasons:
1/ The officer in the kepi would appear to be aged around 40 years old or so. He is wearing 2Lt straps.
2/ As noted by Steve, Gibson made 1Lt in 1871 (July 11 to be exact).
3/ If the kepi photo depicts Gibson it would have to be taken before this 1871 promotion.
4/ Gibson was born in 1847.
5/ The kepi photo would therefore be depicting Gibson aged at most 24 years old, probably younger.
6/ As the kepi photo depicts a man probably nearly twice that age, yet wearing 2Lt straps, it cannot possibly be Gibson.
7/ By the time Gibson was 40 in 1887, he was a Captain (as of February 5 1880), and just 4 years short of retirement from the army.
8/ Even if the officer in the kepi photo isn't quite as old as my suggested 40, he certainly ain't under 24 - which he would need to be to be 2/Lt Gibson!
Steve - it's interesting to note upon closer inspection of that kepi photo that the decorative gold braid is just that - the original leather chinstrap is pushed across the crown of the hat, ready to be deployed to keep it in place when mounted. BTW - is there any clue in Cox & Langellier on this guy's ID? Possibly one of the guys from our Garlington group photo later in their career? Or I'd thought maybe someone who joined even later (and had dark moustaches) like William Nicholson and George Cameron - they were lieutenants to Gibson - but both ended up as generals, so no way they would have been sitting as 2Lt's at the age of our kepi guy!
Regards, George
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Post by John Mackintosh on Jun 15, 2005 16:26:19 GMT -6
At first glance, it certainly looked like him until you excellent photo sleuths unmasked the truth.
When looking at it, I couldn't hlep but think how helpful it would be on these portrait photos to reverse the image where faces are pointing in the same way, making comparison easier. No need to so on this one now though.
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 15, 2005 22:41:39 GMT -6
Good observations. No there is nothing in "Longknives" on his ID that is why I posted it.
Walt
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 15, 2005 23:33:32 GMT -6
Walt, my source is Randy Steffen's _The Horse Soldier_ vol. III. Notice the officer's blouse has collar and edge trim. The 1889 regulation officer's blouse was issued with or without such trim. The blouse also had three cuff buttons. There is a sketch in Steffens book, pg. 30. I realize men added this trim and extra cuff buttons on their own before this but the 1889 regs made these, well, "regulation". Plus, our subject looks older; he may have been a 2nd Lt. for several years as promotions were slow in the frontier army.
In addition, General Order No. 102, 26 Dec 1883, prescribed the gold cap cord. (BTW, George, it's not a "kepi"....it's a "forage cap" (regulation term) Officers were required to provide this cord by March 1884. The forage cap may not be the 1872 model, as the Longknives book suggest; it may be the 1889 model, which had a wider leather strap in front. But we can't tell in the photo; the strap is worn over the top.
Lastly he wears a white collar; a white linen collar to be worn with the enlisted men's dress uniform was adopted in 1887 and made regulation the following year. Could be he is wearing one of these.
The handlebar moustache I think was more common for the 1880s-90s than the 60s or 70s.
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