|
Post by clw on Nov 6, 2007 17:13:56 GMT -6
It tends to bother me when people have to try to find scapegoats in their efforts to make a martyr of Custer. Custer took risks and was well aware of them in advance. He led from the front. He was an excellent small unit leader but a poor regimental commander. A regimental commander should find a location where he can observe and direct his battalions and/or companies. Custer failed to do so. He was so busy trying to be a battalion commander that he failed to properly perform the duties of the regimental commander. Had he placed himself and one company in the vicinty of Weir Point or some other high ground he could have directed both Reno's and Keogh's battalions and moved Benteen where he needed him when he arrived. The mission failed because he failed at his job. That does not mean he wasn't courageous or heroic. He certainly was. I printed that, Mr. Gumby. You've sumarized my own thoughts far better than I could have.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 6, 2007 17:40:01 GMT -6
For the record, fred, I don't think the initial post could be described as "bombastic." You may not agree with the premise, but it certainly wasn't couched in inflammatory language. I also see no reason to think that "lc" is anybody other than "lc." There are lots of people in the world with a wide variety of opinions, and I am afraid this board is getting paranoid about multiple identities. And he certainly has a right to list what he believes are his credentials for stating his opinion. And you are certainly not required to accept them or to agree with him.... There certainly was a lot of CYA going on afterwards--like him or not, Reno was a brother officer, and they all pulled their punches at the RCOI. And, he may have been a competant officer, but Benteen just wasn't a nice guy, and frankly, I don't like him much. Here we go again!I must say, Melani, that I am becoming exhausted from this drivel, literally exhausted. Plus, it's becoming a complete waste of time. Harpskiddie, where are you? Your definition of "bombastic" seems to be a lot different than mine, but when someone comes on these boards, givng us all these so-called credentials on a first-shot basis, then proceeds to present the most lame of cases, I call that bombastic. Here... I'll even let Darkcloud speak for me... I've grown to love people who announce their presence by declaring their self-estimated skills and backgrounds (with implications if not pronouncements they have vast combat, police, secret Indian spiritual experience denied other, lesser mortals) that make them so extraordinarily qualified to publicly comment on th LBH. They rarely declare… that you're to be awed and proud to interact with them, but they all provide the sure evidence in their first posts the blissful ignorance that defines a brand new tether ball. As far as multiple identities and paranoia, please speak for yourself. "LC's" writing style and opinions made me think of someone else, that's all. There was no paranoia involved. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less. If I am wrong about that particular thing, then guess what... I am wrong. Do you really care? Is that something you should be policing? As far as this guy's so-called credentials are concerned, he writes and sounds like a twelve-year old. (There; there's something for you to chew on.) And quite frankly, if that's what we have advising or working for the FBI... well, you know my position on that. It also seems to me that some or most of us on here are being suddenly very self-righteous about officers and men at the RCOI trying to protect brother officers. What do you think of the so-called "Blue flu" that suddenly hits police forces when a brother officer gets accused of something? Is that OK? Or not? The police seem to be this nation's inamoratae... how does that differ from what happened at the RCOI? I think before we throw out a blanket condemnation we should couch it with a caveat. Or would that be fair? I still find no lies there. None. You may not like Fred Benteen, my dear, but let me tell you something. The army is loaded with Fred Benteens. Loaded! I find nothing the man did repulsive, not throughout his entire life. And you also seem to have a different opinion of what a "nice guy" is. These two go together, the competence, the personality; you cannot separate them, at least not in the people I have met. You like the whole package or you like none of it. I know; I governed the same way and I required no one-- not a damned soul-- then or now, to like me, yet some still do despite my penchant for being rather nasty. I wouldn't have been a patch to Fred Benteen-- I don't have his kind of guts-- but I was, and am-- the same type. You do what you need to do and too often it isn't pretty. Sometimes it follows you around in life; it followed Benteen and it follows me. And you, my lovely friend, are free to choose the type you like. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Melani on Nov 6, 2007 22:17:27 GMT -6
Fred, I guess what I meant to say was that lc stated a strong opinion, but did not use any outrageous or personally insulting language. I really think people should be allowed to state their opinions. Perhaps "Independent Research" simply isn't the right place for it.
I never said that Benteen wasn't a good, competent officer, but I don't think it's necessary to be as mean-spirited and vindictive as he seems to have been in order to be a good, compentent officer.
I personally am getting tired of people assuming others are using false identities at the drop of a hat. I post to this board from two different computers--does that mean that two people are using my name? If you don't care about the issue, why bring it up?
I am (slowly) following your advice to read the RCOI testimony, but it will probably take me a very long time to get through it all. I am not interested in condemning anybody in regard to in, but rather in exploring what happened. It seems to me that a lot of people thought Reno acted badly, but nobody came straight out and said so.
|
|
|
Post by alfuso on Nov 6, 2007 23:25:34 GMT -6
Melani
I think it's interesting that Gibson managed to be friends with both GAC and Benteen. I reckon that means he kept his mouth shut.
alfuso
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 7, 2007 5:54:54 GMT -6
I think it's interesting that Gibson managed to be friends with both GAC and Benteen. Are you sure Gibson was friends with Benteen? Everything I read makes me believe Benteen never really cared for Gibson. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 7, 2007 6:16:17 GMT -6
(1) I guess what I meant to say was that lc stated a strong opinion, but did not use any outrageous or personally insulting language. I really think people should be allowed to state their opinions.... (2) I never said that Benteen wasn't a good, competent officer, but I don't think it's necessary to be as mean-spirited and vindictive as he seems to have been in order to be a good, compentent officer. (3) I personally am getting tired of people assuming others are using false identities at the drop of a hat. I post to this board from two different computers--does that mean that two people are using my name? If you don't care about the issue, why bring it up? (4) I am (slowly) following your advice to read the RCOI testimony, but it will probably take me a very long time to get through it all. I am not interested in condemning anybody in regard to in, but rather in exploring what happened. It seems to me that a lot of people thought Reno acted badly, but nobody came straight out and said so. Melani-- I took you to task for your opinion after "wild" did the same thing to me. I am sorry for that; it was wrong. Let me address your points. I feel the same way about people like "lc" as darkcloud feels. They come on here with these so-called credentials-- "look at me!"-- then feed us a bunch of half-baked hogwash, accompanied by none of the attendant caveats... and there are plenty out there! For example: Benteen was a prime character in this play. Maybe the prime character next to Custer himself, so he was under severe scrutiny. Why haven't all the extenuating circumstances be brought into play here? Why only the arguments that Benteen was nothing but a social outcast, a social misfit, a nasty, lying, self-serving human... oh, and yes, a good soldier. So was Potemkin, deep down. So were Walther Model and Erich von Manstein, and you see what "good soldier" got them. Does anyone take into consideration what made Benteen an unhappy individual, a nasty man, a cynic? Or is that much liberal an approach? Is that the same ennui that keeps a liar in the White House? If you want condemnation for actions, read Frank Rich in the New York Times. And please, Melani, if you are pre-disposed, please, spare me the "liberal news media" label. My point with "lc" is simple: he is subject to the same close rules and scrutiny we all are. And he failed the test magnificently, first post and out. FBI? Come on; the guy couldn't put together a cogent sentence and we are expected to believe his credentials? Ease in, baby; feel your way. Don't come into our house with your guns blazing. I didn't; and neither did you. You are too much of a lady, and I would like to believe I'm too much of a gentleman to insult the pros on this board. Opinions? Absolutely. "Opinions welcome." Dogma? Hold on a sec! Your second point. You're making an assumption. He comes through that way in the stuff we have been told or may have read. Yet "alfuso" just posted that he was friends with Gibson. He was also friends with Keogh, a lot closer than Keogh was to Custer, that's for sure. I picture Benteen as a consummate pro, not a bastard. He paid short shrift to idiots and believe me, the military is full of idiots. It's a high calling and Benteen was a soldier. His personality brooked no fools. So if that is a description of nasty, I'll gladly take it. Number 3. Agreed. My only point is, "just grow up, boys." Number 4. Hurry. It's great stuff. Personally, I don't see all the "cover-up" garbage, though there is a clear attempt by some-- not by all!-- to help Reno. Nothing more, just help. Very best wishes, Melani, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by alfuso on Nov 7, 2007 7:42:06 GMT -6
Fred
well, Gibson managed to be *friend-ly* with both parties.
alfuso
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 7, 2007 8:05:44 GMT -6
Linda--
I will accept that. Thanks.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Tricia on Nov 7, 2007 9:04:42 GMT -6
BTW--
"lc" never claimed to work for the FBI. As I recall his initial statement, he did/does/imagines himself to be an "FBI-type" of profiler .... which means, he just might watch Geraldo at Large or Dog, the (Racist) Bounty Hunter between conspiracy videos about LBH.
--t.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 7, 2007 9:36:08 GMT -6
I deal in profiling people as in FBI type profiling in psychological realms to understand who they are. Okay. I'll delete that from my invective. Does it negate everything?
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Nov 7, 2007 11:44:18 GMT -6
I read lc's statement as having professional experience in profiling people. When one uses "FBI" and "Psychological Realm" it rings of having expert experience in those fields.
Do you?
|
|
|
Post by Tricia on Nov 7, 2007 12:03:56 GMT -6
I think the fellow is probably just an astrologer ... after all, that's profiling in a psychological realm. Or mumbo jumbo ... as is the tantrum about the Fine Captain.
|
|
|
Post by Montana Bab on Nov 7, 2007 12:38:44 GMT -6
One of the reasons I don't join in the debates on these boards is because I am a beginner not particularly knowledgeable on this subject. So I'll probably get into hot soup here, but here goes....
I was always passive on Mr. Benteen, not making much of an opinion about him, but I just finished reading the Benteen-Goldin letters from "Custer Myth", and for once I can understand where Benteen's animosity towards Custer came from. He seems to me to be an officer who goes-by-the-book, and Custer's recklessness and self-grandiose attitude must have driven him nuts.
Having said that, the rest of those letters sound like a disgruntled and embittered old man, but rightly so, after being accused of "not saving the General".
It totally amazes me that there are those that actually believe that it was Benteen's and Reno's responsibility to "save Custer". It was after all, Custer who sent Benteen off to the left to the wild blue yonder looking for indians, and sent Reno into a bee's nest which was actually a suicide mission, while he sauntered off to the north to do God knows what. (He certainly did not "support" Reno).
I've tried to keep an open mind while reading about LBH, but for the life of me, I can't get around one fact..Custer screwed up! Fred tells us to remember simplicity.....well that's as simple as it gets. Neither Benteen nor Reno "split the team", they didn't pick or choose which way to go or what to do, they were ordered by the General.
I believe that what happened that day was set in stone the moment Custer set out to attack that village. He miscalculated and misjudged the situation. It mattered little that Reno turned and ran, it mattered little that Reno & Benteen did not "go to Custer", They were outnumbered and out-soldiered because of Custer's actions. And if he were here to capitulate, I believe he would admit it! He was that much of a man.
Just my opinion, and I know they're not worth much. But so far havn't read anything that changes them!
Bab
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 7, 2007 15:08:22 GMT -6
Montana--
That is-- from my perspective-- as good and as intelligent a summary as I have read anywhere on these boards. I think your conclusions are dead on correct. You may feel you do not know a lot, but you understand more than so many others. When it all comes down to the final outcome, it is the understanding that matters and that is especially so in the finality of military events.
Incidentally, since you have just completed the Benteen-Goldin letters (read, envy), you should immediately read Benteen's testimony at the RCOI and compare the two. Compare the tone, the vibrancy of each and I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that. I do not have the "letters," though they are on my Amazon list.
Again, Kathlene, beautifully crafted.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Nov 7, 2007 16:07:35 GMT -6
Fred:
"I think your conclusions are dead on correct" and therefore "from my perspective-- as good and intelligent a summary as I have read anywhere on these boards."
Would they be as good and intelligent and as "beautifully crafted" did they not agree with your own, Fred?
Kathlene:
I just mailed the package, which includes a little bonus for you.
Gordie
|
|