|
Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 4, 2007 22:25:08 GMT -6
Scout has contributed a great article to the wiki. It details the early history of the battlefield and its superintendents. Please remember that you can edit the wiki so, if you have additional information to add, please feel free to contribute. Here's the direct link to the article by Scout: www.seedwiki.com/wiki/lbha/early_history?wikiPageId=1135415Thanks, Scout!
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 5, 2007 9:25:52 GMT -6
I don't know how to edit the wiki, and I wouldn't feel comfortable correcting someone else's posting anyway [otherwise I'd have blasted the timeline with my intra-universe gamma ray gun] but a couple of quick observations:
The monument was erected in 1881, not 1888, otherwise those 1886 reunioners would have been time-traveling
Nye/Cartwright ridge was actually discovered much earlier than 1943. I think, without looking it up, by Joe Blummer in 1928 or thereabouts. The later rediscoveries led to the misnaming of the area. I always call it Blummer ridge, and add the Nye/Cartwright when I think the reader may not know what I'm talking about. Or maybe when I'm afraid I don't know what I'm talking about.
Gordie, I'm talking 'bout you, nobody but you - I do mean you. I'm just trying to get a message to you.
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Sept 6, 2007 11:02:36 GMT -6
Wiki and its ability to "edit" articles is a land mine as we have seen with our former Swiss friend. It's better to submit an article then have comments on it, rather than changing its contents due to agendas, personalities, or vendettas.
|
|
|
Post by Scout on Sept 6, 2007 16:30:35 GMT -6
Well obviously the date for the monument was wrong. Another late night mistake. I don't mind anyone changing or questioning the articles that I've posted there...feel free all to question, change or challenge anything I've posted...after all it's only history. Even you Gordie.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 20, 2007 16:12:31 GMT -6
Wanted to thank Scout for that about the salting.
I'd been told that there was all sorts of juvenile - and fun - shenanigans that took place on the field before WWII, and people rode and hunted and shot a fair amount. Those likely to care weren't there enough. I believe my source, because he certainly is just the sort who'd have done it, but it isn't proof.
|
|
|
Post by Montana Bab on Sept 20, 2007 17:29:34 GMT -6
Wanted to thank Scout for that about the salting. I'd been told that there was all sorts of juvenile - and fun - shenanigans that took place on the field before WWII, and people rode and hunted and shot a fair amount. Those likely to care weren't there enough. I believe my source, because he certainly is just the sort who'd have done it, but it isn't proof. Gee, should we assume that those "shells" were included in the archeological conclusions years later?
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 21, 2007 8:18:02 GMT -6
Don't assume anything, I guess. Especially........
Just because a case is found manufactured before the battle, but not Army issue, does not mean it was an Indian case fired at the battle.
Same with Army cases.
If field superintendents felt fine about salting (and why not, given what they didn't know could be technologically proven back then), what else would they be comfortable approving off the record?
|
|
|
Post by Treasuredude on Sept 21, 2007 16:52:41 GMT -6
Don't assume anything, I guess. Especially........ Just because a case is found manufactured before the battle, but not Army issue, does not mean it was an Indian case fired at the battle. Same with Army cases. If field superintendents felt fine about salting (and why not, given what they didn't know could be technologically proven back then), what else would they be comfortable approving off the record? I have heard that Luce (?) used Deep Ravine as a garbage dump.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2007 18:07:08 GMT -6
Mfg’d by Frankford Arsenal Ca. Indian Wars. Copper casings/ lead bullet; distinctive primer anvil crimp lines near ctg. Base. Some early (pre-1877) w/ no headstamp; some 1881 dated. All exc cond. Single cartridges for display. Scarce. (each $35.00) If you wanted to you could buy one and take anywhere you like to find it. www.cwguns.com/Ammunition.htmlAZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 21, 2007 19:03:33 GMT -6
Dude:
Were Deep Ravine used as a garbage dump, one might think that they would have found something in it during their in-depth investigations [pun intended].
Steve:
How much would it cost for 6,000?
Gordie, how much is that doggie in the window?.............................................
|
|
|
Post by Treasuredude on Sept 21, 2007 20:56:21 GMT -6
Gordie--
They did. Lots and lots of garbage. I read it in Michno's E TROOP and Fox mentioned it this summer.
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Sept 22, 2007 11:41:10 GMT -6
Dude:
The only thing I can find in Michno's book is on page 53 [softcover edition]: "Trench 9 contained the usual silt and sand, but had the extra deposit of one-half foot of trash, glass, crockery, pipe, wood and cobbles dating from the '30s. The trash was thought to have been placed there as 'riprap,' a crude dam to prevent further erosion of the headcut."
That's likely why I didn't recall it; but it is not quite the same as Luce, or anyone else, using the ravine as a garbage dump, which I likely would have remembered. I'll admit up front that I didn't re-read the entire book, so maybe I missed another reference.
I will rephrase my remark to "aside from that riprap" LOL. I probably should have kept my big mouth shut. The point I usually try to make about Deep Ravine is that try as they might, and they have tried, nobody yet has come up with any physical evidence of human remains or battle-related artifacts down in there.
Gordie, put another egg on my plate, would you Carstairs, I seem to have got that last one on my face...
|
|
|
Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 22, 2007 22:57:18 GMT -6
True, Gordie. I believe I'm correct that they have never excavated one of the walls of the ravine that would be a likely place for the remains (if any). I'm going back 15 years or more, but I believe that's what Doug Scott told me.
I think T-Dude is correct about the garbage dump. I've heard that many times. I vote for dump rather than dam.
|
|
|
Post by Treasuredude on Sept 23, 2007 10:14:21 GMT -6
Gordie--
I'm still looking for the source. I could have sworn Michno but I looked last night and to no avail. My memory is not the , uh, er, umm, ...what was I talking about?
I may have been a bit hasty throwing Luce's name out there. It was probably before him.
|
|
|
Post by elisabeth on Sept 23, 2007 11:13:54 GMT -6
I've read that it was Luce, as well -- but can't, uh, er, umm, remember the source. Possibly the same Michno statement, and assumed it was Luce as he was Superintendent at the time?
Erosion was a big problem from the start, so the "riprap" explanation does ring true. Homer Wheeler tells of visiting the field a short while ahead of the official 1877 reburial party and finding skeletons washed out of "a ravine" by a recent rainstorm; he's not specific about where (no maps or anything) but it sounds as if it could well be Deep Ravine. His party reburied them -- not necessarily where they came from, but where the ground was softest for digging. A century and more of similar good offices, and the remains could be almost anywhere.
Luce may have had his blind spots, but I don't believe he was a natural-born vandal; I'm sure that if he did chuck garbage into the ravine, it'll have been with the best of intentions ...
|
|