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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Aug 29, 2010 15:43:25 GMT -6
Why would he want to scout Tullocks if he thought the village was 40 miles away near or in Wyoming. The maps Terry had at the time were not correct. I think you are confusing where Terry told Custer to go to and then turn back and come up the LBH not where he thought the village was located. Notice Terry stated that even if the trail turned (that would mean where the village would be located) he wanted Custer to continue on. The headwaters of the Tongue is in Wyoming and I sure Terry didn't want Custer to go into Wyoming and cross over to the Little Horn. That distance is well beyond 40 miles up the Little Horn. AZ Ranger Ranger, you have quoted from Terry's letter to Custer that "...he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue..." so Terry was conceding that the Indian trail could turn in that direction and if it did, then Custer would need to go there too. In fact, as Reno had seen an Indian trail some days earlier, it could have gone almost anywhere in the time that had elapsed since then. That fact that if the Indian village was anywhere on the LBH it was expected to be closer to its headwaters than to its mouth is confirmed by Gibbon, firstly in his note of June 18th to Terry, ""I presume the only remaining chance of finding the Indians now is is in the direction of the headwaters of Rosebud or Little Big Horn" and secondly in his report of October 17th "As my scouts had recently reported smoke on the Little Big Horn, the presence of an Indian camp some distance up that stream was inferred." In his January 1896 diatribe, Robert Hughes also indicated that the village location was uncertain stating "...the Indians...were either on the Little Big Horn or the Rotten Grass." That is some considerable 'either/or' in distance terms and in his June 21st dispatch to Sheridan Terry demonstrated his uncertainty when he said "I only hope that one of the two columns will find the Indians." As for the scouting of Tullock's, that is a can of worms and I will just note that in the letter to Custer Terry states "The lower part of this creek will be examined by a detachment from Colonel Gibbon's command." If the entire Montana Column was meant to march up Tullock's there would have been no need for that wording. "Hunk"
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Reddirt
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Life is But a Dream...
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Post by Reddirt on Sept 3, 2010 19:40:08 GMT -6
Excellent explanation "Hunk"! I would add only one factor to the Tullock's scout or failure there of. When the original request to scout that area was issued, Terry did not know the precise location of the village, nor could he have know. However, the request was made to ensure that a possible location of the village not be overlooked.
Upon arrival at the Tullock's area, Custer was already following a large, "hot" Indian trial and, finally, knew that the village had not moved in that direction. It would have been impractical to have sent a man in that direction when (A) the village was not in that direction and (B) no messenger could have reached Terry before the battle had been fought and completed.
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Reddirt
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Post by Reddirt on Sept 4, 2010 12:51:08 GMT -6
Reddirt I understand that when Crook left so did the anvil. My point was that Terry/Gibbon/ Custer were never meant to be the anvil as you stated. Chalk it up to a little misunderstanding As to your statement that Custer was meant to scout, find the Indians and drive them. I have no idea where you got that from. AZ posted Terry's entire order to Custer, where do you get from that order your statement about what Custer was suppose to do. "It is apparent from Terry's plan, that he expected the Indians to try and flee from the troops rather than engage in a stand up fight. It is also apparent that Terry expected Custer to engage the Indians, and didn't t expect Custer to wait until the infantry could get into position. The General did expect that 'Custer should attack the savages where found and as to the manner of the attack, of course, was left to the description and judgment of Custer.'..."Also evident in Terry's tactics, this plan was but a modified version of his earlier thinking, in that the best chance he had of bringing the Indians to bay could be accomplished by turning Custer, his only Indian experienced field commander, loose with a strong mobile strike force. "One column would have to make the first contact, Lt. Bradley wrote in his diary the true intent of Terry's plan, and it was 'understood that if Custer arrives first he is at liberty to attack at once if he deems prudent." Page 9-10,"Vanishing Victory:Custer's final March by Bruce E. Liddic I realize that when the fact that Custer was meant to locate, attack, and drive the Indians toward Terry's position seems ridiculous on the surface when so many brand him as foolish in light of his entire command being wiped out. what is forgotten is that Terry believed each command to be strong enough to defeat the Indians by themselves. As foolish is that assumption now appears (to us) it was a form of reality then! How could men on foot (infantry) be expected to keep up with men on horseback? Custer was allowed to leave the Gatling guns behind because they would hamper his speed. A decision that was supported by Terry. The plan was to have Custer strike, push, maneuver, capture/force survivors toward Terry's command (the anvil) which would engage in an mop-up operation. An unbiased reading of Terry's orders will not reveal a single objection to any action that Custer took. All was up to his discretion. Prior to reaching Tullock's area he had absolutely confirmed that the Indian village was in his direct front. Sadly, if one honestly researches the available evidence it soon becomes self evident that several individuals of that era altered facts to falsely implicate Custer of the sole responsibility of the outcome of this battle. In hoping to better understand how this battle unfolded, we need to examine the positive and negative actions of every participant of this battle to glean the kernels of truth still available.
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Post by benteen on Sept 4, 2010 14:21:33 GMT -6
Reddirt ; I realize that when the fact that Custer was meant to locate, attack, and drive the Indians toward Terry's position seems ridiculous on the surface when so many brand him as foolish in light of his entire command being wiped out. what is forgotten is that Terry believed each command to be strong enough to defeat the Indians by themselves. Reddirt,again chalk it up to my not being the brightest bulb in the pack.but I have no idea where you are getting this from.Again read AZ Rangers post that contains Terry's orders to Custer and please point out where Terry told him to attack and drive the Indians Yes Terry gave Custer some discretion as all commanders do since they don't know what their subordinate may run into.But I see nowhere that Terry was telling Custer to attack That wasn't Terry that thought that any unit could handle the warriors by themselves that was Sherman / Sheridan and they were referring to the Crook and Terry columns
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Reddirt
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Life is But a Dream...
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Post by Reddirt on Sept 5, 2010 18:26:00 GMT -6
Benteen, you are very astute and a decent fellow who has nothing to apologize for. I respect you and hope that you feel the same. The fact that you do not "see" the purpose of Custer's mission that I have proposed is understandable and, you may very well be correct. The important issue is that you and can agree to disagree without casting negative dispersions. Thank you!
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 6, 2010 14:24:13 GMT -6
Excellent explanation "Hunk"! 1) However, the request was made to ensure that a possible location of the village not be overlooked. 2) Upon arrival at the Tullock's area....... It would have been impractical to have sent a man in that direction when (A) the village was not in that direction...... 3) and (B) no messenger could have reached Terry before the battle had been fought and completed. Reddirt, thank you for your compliment. I cannot agree however, with your above remarks. 1) In "On time for Disaster" which covers the journal and account of Lt. McClernand, his description of the Tullock's Creek terrain, during the Ball scout in April 1876, is such that it is a most unlikely place for the Indians to camp. The Creek was mainly used as a transit route to and from the Yellowstone. 2) With no Indians in the Creek, it would not have been impractical to send Herendeen, merely pointless. The information required by the Montana Column was not where the Indians were not, but where they were and at virtually the same time as their location was established. Custer, believing his command had been seen, ordered the attack. That is when it became impractical to send Herendeen. 3) Covered by my last sentence in (2) above, but in my opinion, was always the case regarding a co-ordinated action. Regards. "Hunk" Papa
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Post by benteen on Sept 6, 2010 21:07:42 GMT -6
Reddrirt
Thanks for the kind words I appreciate it. Of course I respect you as I respect everyone until they show me I shouldn't
Be Well Dan
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 7, 2010 15:40:53 GMT -6
I think Terry would have liked it if Custer sent Herendeen or SOMEONE to inform him of the imminent attack plan. Even if Terry couldn't have gotten there to help/save/rescue Custer, common sense dictates you communicate with your commanding officer what your intentions are, especially when the entire campaign was centered around finding the Hostile Camps and forcing them into reservations and letting higher ups know what you found or are going to do.
This is just like Custer failing to inform Benteen of the Custer/Reno separation and attack plans while Benteen was off by himself looking around aimlessly . . . he could have at least been made aware of the sighting of Indians and possibly put a fire under him to respond . . . rather than being called on at the last minute by one dubious messenger (Kanipe) and a private with poor grasp of English carrying a cryptic note.
Was Custer trying to ensure more of the glory for himself rather than waiting for Terry to possibly alter his plans . . . and just why was Benteen kept in the dark for so long as to Custer's intentions?
PS: Famous Last Words (paraphrase): "Now, Custer, don't be greedy . . . wait for us"
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 7, 2010 17:39:17 GMT -6
Why would he want to scout Tullocks if he thought the village was 40 miles away near or in Wyoming. The maps Terry had at the time were not correct. I think you are confusing where Terry told Custer to go to and then turn back and come up the LBH not where he thought the village was located. Notice Terry stated that even if the trail turned (that would mean where the village would be located) he wanted Custer to continue on. The headwaters of the Tongue is in Wyoming and I sure Terry didn't want Custer to go into Wyoming and cross over to the Little Horn. That distance is well beyond 40 miles up the Little Horn. AZ Ranger Ranger, you have quoted from Terry's letter to Custer that "...he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue..." so Terry was conceding that the Indian trail could turn in that direction and if it did, then Custer would need to go there too. In fact, as Reno had seen an Indian trail some days earlier, it could have gone almost anywhere in the time that had elapsed since then. That fact that if the Indian village was anywhere on the LBH it was expected to be closer to its headwaters than to its mouth is confirmed by Gibbon, firstly in his note of June 18th to Terry, ""I presume the only remaining chance of finding the Indians now is is in the direction of the headwaters of Rosebud or Little Big Horn" and secondly in his report of October 17th "As my scouts had recently reported smoke on the Little Big Horn, the presence of an Indian camp some distance up that stream was inferred." In his January 1896 diatribe, Robert Hughes also indicated that the village location was uncertain stating "...the Indians...were either on the Little Big Horn or the Rotten Grass." That is some considerable 'either/or' in distance terms and in his June 21st dispatch to Sheridan Terry demonstrated his uncertainty when he said "I only hope that one of the two columns will find the Indians." As for the scouting of Tullock's, that is a can of worms and I will just note that in the letter to Custer Terry states "The lower part of this creek will be examined by a detachment from Colonel Gibbon's command." If the entire Montana Column was meant to march up Tullock's there would have been no need for that wording. "Hunk" So do you believe that Terry knew the headwaters of the Tongue was in Wyoming? Or was the map of the time not correct? My point is that Wiggs states "The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed." Since the best reference to Terry's guess is in writing in the orders to Custer. Here is Terry's guess in orange as written in the order: Should it be found (as appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, That is where the Indians were found. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 7, 2010 17:46:09 GMT -6
1) I think Terry would have liked it if Custer sent Herendeen or SOMEONE to inform him of the imminent attack plan. Even if Terry couldn't have gotten there to help/save/rescue Custer, common sense dictates you communicate with your commanding officer what your intentions are, especially when the entire campaign was centered around finding the Hostile Camps and forcing them into reservations and letting higher ups know what you found or are going to do. 2) This is just like Custer failing to inform Benteen of the Custer/Reno separation and attack plans while Benteen was off by himself looking around aimlessly . . . he could have at least been made aware of the sighting of Indians and possibly put a fire under him to respond . . . rather than being called on at the last minute by one dubious messenger (Kanipe) and a private with poor grasp of English carrying a cryptic note. 3) Was Custer trying to ensure more of the glory for himself rather than waiting for Terry to possibly alter his plans . . .(3A) and just why was Benteen kept in the dark for so long as to Custer's intentions? 4) PS: Famous Last Words (paraphrase): "Now, Custer, don't be greedy . . . wait for us" crzhrs, What you have posted above is no doubt your honestly held views but with respect, they are based on some assumptions as I see it:- 1) In Terry's 22nd June letter to Custer it states inter alia "...and that you should endeavour to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's Column..." That word endeavour means 'try' and was used because Terry knew that there was no way Custer could adhere to any strict schedule as the Indians could have gone in a number of directions from the point that Reno had discovered their trail. Furthermore, Custer's attack plan was not formulated until the morning of June 25th and he believed it necessary to attack at once after he felt the command was discovered. If the Montana Column had been marching up the Big Horn valley as planned, there was no point in sending anyone after them as the expected flight by the Indians could only be north into their path. 2) The assumption here is that there was no pre-arranged plan. It served Reno and Benteen to say so but we only have their word for that. By Benteen's own admission he disobeyed his orders by returning to the main trail so how was Custer to keep him informed until it became apparent that Benteen was behind him? 3) This is a continual argument but there is no evidence to support it other than the opinion that Custer was a glory hunter. I have no axe to grind for GAC but let us stick to evidence rather than bias when we judge his decisions. 3A) Is covered by (2) above. Was Benteen kept in the dark or did his disobedience of orders mean that he was in the wrong place at a critical time? 4) So? "....it is understood that if Custer arrives first, he is at liberty to attack at once if he deems prudent." (Bradley - 'The March of the Montana Column.') and Brisbin too said something similar in his June 21st dispatch to the New York Herald.As with all aspects of the LBH battle, there is room for interpretation of evidence of course. I think however, that we should look at all possible answers before waving one particular flag. Best wishes. "Hunk"
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 7, 2010 20:00:02 GMT -6
Ranger, you have quoted from Terry's letter to Custer that "...he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue..." so Terry was conceding that the Indian trail could turn in that direction and if it did, then Custer would need to go there too. In fact, as Reno had seen an Indian trail some days earlier, it could have gone almost anywhere in the time that had elapsed since then. That fact that if the Indian village was anywhere on the LBH it was expected to be closer to its headwaters than to its mouth is confirmed by Gibbon, firstly in his note of June 18th to Terry, ""I presume the only remaining chance of finding the Indians now is is in the direction of the headwaters of Rosebud or Little Big Horn" and secondly in his report of October 17th "As my scouts had recently reported smoke on the Little Big Horn, the presence of an Indian camp some distance up that stream was inferred." In his January 1896 diatribe, Robert Hughes also indicated that the village location was uncertain stating "...the Indians...were either on the Little Big Horn or the Rotten Grass." That is some considerable 'either/or' in distance terms and in his June 21st dispatch to Sheridan Terry demonstrated his uncertainty when he said "I only hope that one of the two columns will find the Indians." As for the scouting of Tullock's, that is a can of worms and I will just note that in the letter to Custer Terry states "The lower part of this creek will be examined by a detachment from Colonel Gibbon's command." If the entire Montana Column was meant to march up Tullock's there would have been no need for that wording. "Hunk" So do you believe that Terry knew the headwaters of the Tongue was in Wyoming? Or was the map of the time not correct? My point is that Wiggs states "The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed." Since the best reference to Terry's guess is in writing in the orders to Custer. Here is Terry's guess in orange as written in the order: Should it be found (as appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, That is where the Indians were found. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 8, 2010 7:59:27 GMT -6
No question everyone felt Custer was free to attack if he found a village. Even though Custer sent two messengers to Benteen to tell him to continue his scout I can't understand why he failed to inform Benteen when the Custer/Reno separation began and attack orders were issued. Wouldn't that have been more urgent than to continue his scout?
As for not sending Terry any word . . . still gotta think it was a mistake not to at least let his superior officer know what was unfolding.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 8, 2010 14:36:05 GMT -6
[quote author=azranger board=interviews thread=2172 post=70125 time=1283902757 So do you believe that Terry knew the headwaters of the Tongue was in Wyoming? Or was the map of the time not correct? My point is that Wiggs states "The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed." Since the best reference to Terry's guess is in writing in the orders to Custer. Here is Terry's guess in orange as written in the order: Should it be found (as appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, That is where the Indians were found. Regards AZ Ranger Ranger, If you take only one quote from Terry's letter to Custer and ignore the rest, you can of course make an argument from that isolated quote to suit your purpose. Whether or not Terry personally knew that the headwaters of the Tongue were in Wyoming is irrelevant. He had Bouyer there at the meeting on June 20th who knew the whole area intimately and almost certainly gave Terry a lot of information about possible locations where the Indians might camp. Bouyer knew that from where he and Reno had discovered the Indian trail the 'hostiles' had various sites that were favoured for good hunting and could have gone to any one of them depending on circumstance. That is why in his dispatch to Sheridan of June 21st, Terry states "Gibbon's column will move this morning.....Custer will go up the Rosebud tomorrow with his whole command and thence to the headwaters of the Little Horn, thence down the Little Horn. I only hope that one of the two columns will find the Indians." I have already quoted the relevant passages from Terry's letter to Custer about the Tongue so it should be evident from the extract you have cited that the Little Horn was considered the best guess. The point is that it was no more than that and it was ultimately fortuitious for Terry that the Indians did set up their village there because it enabled him to talk up his 'plan' post-battle as if it was virtually foolproof. If you believe that Terry knew for sure that the Indians would end up on the Little Big Horn, that is your privilege. Personally, I have my doubts. Reddirts's reference to the village being 40 miles further down river than Terry guessed seems to me to be roughly the difference between them camping near the headwaters as anticipated ( a much used hunting ground) and ending up 15 miles from its junction with the Big Horn. I am however, not here to fight his corner as my observations are just that, observations. Regards, "Hunk"
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 8, 2010 15:04:03 GMT -6
1)... I can't understand why he failed to inform Benteen when the Custer/Reno separation began and attack orders were issued. Wouldn't that have been more urgent than to continue his scout? 2) As for not sending Terry any word . . . still gotta think it was a mistake not to at least let his superior officer know what was unfolding. 1) Consider this. Given that Benteen admitted to disobeying his orders when he returned to the main trail, what were his original orders? Certainly not to just keep going to his left as that is patently absurd. The point is that whatever they were, when Custer sent Reno to attack he believed Benteen was carrying out those original orders and any message to him would not get there before Reno hit the village. Assuming that Custer, an experienced military commander, would not go into any attack without a plan and had communicated that plan to his subordinates, why would Benteen need further orders? When Custer realised that Benteen had not carried out his original orders and was probably behind him, he opened up communications with him via Kanipe, if indeed he was a messenger, then Martin. 2) As a general rule yes, but in the circumstances, Custer expected Terry to be somewhere near the Big Horn/Little Horn junction so sending a messenger down Tullock's then up the Big Horn after him was a futile exercise. In any event, by cutting across Tullock's Divide, Terry had completely blown his timetable out of the picture and Custer could not be expected to know that. In fact, the question arises; why didn't Terry send a messenger to Custer? The simple answer is that he did not know where Custer would be because that would depend on what direction the Indians had followed. It is surely self-evident that this uncertainty rendered a co-ordinated attack very unlikely and that possibility only gained credence post-battle. Regards. "Hunk"
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2010 18:19:33 GMT -6
[quote author=azranger board=interviews thread=2172 post=70125 time=1283902757 So do you believe that Terry knew the headwaters of the Tongue was in Wyoming? Or was the map of the time not correct? My point is that Wiggs states "The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed." Since the best reference to Terry's guess is in writing in the orders to Custer. Here is Terry's guess in orange as written in the order: Should it be found (as appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, That is where the Indians were found. Regards AZ Ranger Ranger, If you take only one quote from Terry's letter to Custer and ignore the rest, you can of course make an argument from that isolated quote to suit your purpose. Whether or not Terry personally knew that the headwaters of the Tongue were in Wyoming is irrelevant. He had Bouyer there at the meeting on June 20th who knew the whole area intimately and almost certainly gave Terry a lot of information about possible locations where the Indians might camp. Bouyer knew that from where he and Reno had discovered the Indian trail the 'hostiles' had various sites that were favoured for good hunting and could have gone to any one of them depending on circumstance. That is why in his dispatch to Sheridan of June 21st, Terry states "Gibbon's column will move this morning.....Custer will go up the Rosebud tomorrow with his whole command and thence to the headwaters of the Little Horn, thence down the Little Horn. I only hope that one of the two columns will find the Indians." I have already quoted the relevant passages from Terry's letter to Custer about the Tongue so it should be evident from the extract you have cited that the Little Horn was considered the best guess. The point is that it was no more than that and it was ultimately fortuitious for Terry that the Indians did set up their village there because it enabled him to talk up his 'plan' post-battle as if it was virtually foolproof. If you believe that Terry knew for sure that the Indians would end up on the Little Big Horn, that is your privilege. Personally, I have my doubts. Reddirts's reference to the village being 40 miles further down river than Terry guessed seems to me to be roughly the difference between them camping near the headwaters as anticipated ( a much used hunting ground) and ending up 15 miles from its junction with the Big Horn. I am however, not here to fight his corner as my observations are just that, observations. Regards, "Hunk" I am not ignoring anything. Where else is the guess that it located 40 miles from the location they found the village? Was Terry going to sit at the junction of the LBH and the Bighorn rivers while Custer was to travel 40 miles up and then 40 miles back? Here is where he places Gibbons. Not far from the village I would guess. The column of General Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Regards AZ Ranger
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