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Post by Jas. Watson on Oct 30, 2007 14:48:36 GMT -6
I just reread Major Brisbin of the 2nd Cav. letter to Godfrey dated Jan. 1892 in regard to Godfrey's Century Magazine article about the battle. Wow, I feel he really blistered Godfrey and thus a lot of those who subscribe to the 'conventional wisdom' regarding Reno and Benteens 'failures' at LBH.
My question is what do others here who are more informed and knowlegable than I think about what Brisbin says? I would have to assume Brisbin knows whereof he speaks--does he have 'an ax to grind'? Or is he truly trying to set the record straight?
Just wondering.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 30, 2007 16:30:35 GMT -6
Jas., Brisbin as you know, had no time for Custer, and his views need to be regarded with that in mind. Without going into the full detail of Brisbin's letter of 1892, it was of course post-battle and there was a military agenda in place to keep the finger of blame pointed at GAC (I accept that thinhs are more complex than that but for the sake of brevity), but just as point of comparison in his letter of 1892 he says inter alia "Terry intended, if he intended anything, that we should be in the battle with you."
Yet in a dispatch sent by him in June 1876 to the New York Herald he says, "It was announced by General Terry that General Custer's column would strike the blow and General Gibbon and his men received the decision without a murmur.."
You ask does he have an axe to grind - in regard to Custer, I would say yes. In regard to the LBH battle, he wasn't there so he can only give an opinion based on post-battle observation and discussions with others who were, but not with Custer. As we say this side of the pond, 'You pays your penny and you takes your chance.'
Regards.
Hunk
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Reddirt
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Life is But a Dream...
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Post by Reddirt on Sept 19, 2009 21:23:02 GMT -6
In his need to protect General Terry from any responsibility of failure in this battle, Brisbin resorted to fantasy and an incredible denial of truth to make Custer responsible for it all. For example, he confirmed Benteen's exaggeration of the command's marches when he knew them to have been embellished.
Convinced that Custer was responsible for the whole mess, he pulled out all stops to exonerate Terry from any implication of malfeasance..
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 27, 2009 6:21:59 GMT -6
What responsibility would Terry have once Custer deviated from his orders? Custer was on his own which is how he liked it.
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Reddirt
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Post by Reddirt on Nov 22, 2009 18:19:13 GMT -6
What responsibility would Terry have once Custer deviated from his orders? Custer was on his own which is how he liked it. Custer did not deviate from his orders. Terry gave him a large amount of discretion which was necessary in order to track, locate, then prevent the Indians from escaping. The forces under Terry and Gibbons were meant to be the "anvil" which Custer's forces would drive the Indians against. As silly as it seems today, it is important to understand that Terry's dominant concern was that the Indians would escape. No one could imagine that they would not only stand but, win. |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2009 21:24:44 GMT -6
Terry's desire was to win. It didn't matter what decisions Custer thought were the right choice since he lost. Custer provided Terry with the exact excuse that Terry used. If the plan had been followed he felt it would have succeeded. Terry's fear was real and the Indians did run away.
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Reddirt
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Post by Reddirt on Aug 14, 2010 15:22:13 GMT -6
Terry's desire was to win. I agree.It didn't matter what decisions Custer thought were the right choice since he lost. Custer provided Terry with the exact excuse that Terry used. Disagree: All decisions "matter" in a battle regardless of a win or lost as there are degrees of failure and accomplishment. Custer could have "lost" yet, saved 1/4 of his command, 1/2 of his command or 2/3 of his command. (etc.) In the reverse, he may have "won" the battle and lost 90% of manpower (etc.) which would have been tragic.
Terry's "confidential" report that was exposed was not an "excuse." it was the result of erroneous information supplied to him. One case would be the gross exaggeration of miles the command allegedly marched per day. Benteen added 26 miles to it;a fair days march in itself If the plan had been followed he felt it would have succeeded. Terry's fear was real and the Indians did run away. Disagree: The plan was followed as judiciously as possible considering the circumstances and authorized leeway afforded by Terry to Custer. It must be remembered that no one knew the location of the village when the plans were drawn up. The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed. He was intelligent enough to make provisions for the unknown. |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 28, 2010 10:29:32 GMT -6
Terry's desire was to win. I agree.It didn't matter what decisions Custer thought were the right choice since he lost. Custer provided Terry with the exact excuse that Terry used. Disagree: All decisions "matter" in a battle regardless of a win or lost as there are degrees of failure and accomplishment. Custer could have "lost" yet, saved 1/4 of his command, 1/2 of his command or 2/3 of his command. (etc.) In the reverse, he may have "won" the battle and lost 90% of manpower (etc.) which would have been tragic.
Terry's "confidential" report that was exposed was not an "excuse." it was the result of erroneous information supplied to him. One case would be the gross exaggeration of miles the command allegedly marched per day. Benteen added 26 miles to it;a fair days march in itself If the plan had been followed he felt it would have succeeded. Terry's fear was real and the Indians did run away. Disagree: The plan was followed as judiciously as possible considering the circumstances and authorized leeway afforded by Terry to Custer. It must be remembered that no one knew the location of the village when the plans were drawn up. The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed. He was intelligent enough to make provisions for the unknown.If followed as Terry desired Custer would be moving down the LBH with all 12 companies. |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 28, 2010 10:31:26 GMT -6
Colonel,
The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken leads. Should it be found (as appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians to the south or southeast by passing around to your flank. The column of General Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Of course its future movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, but it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly enclosed by the two columns that their escape will be impossible.
The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's column with the information of the result of your examination. The lower part of this creek will be examined by a detachment from Colonel Gibbon's command. The supply steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far as the forks if the river is navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander who will accompany the column of Colonel Gibbon, desires you to report to him there no later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the meantime you receive further orders.
Very Respectfully
Your obedient servant,
E.W. Smith
Captain, 18th Infantry
Acting Assistant
Adjutant General
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 28, 2010 10:47:02 GMT -6
The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed.
Where does your 40 miles come from Wiggs? Terry guessed the trail would turn toward the Little Horn. It did and was about as close to where Terry could have possibly guessed. When the Indians turned toward the Little Horn they camped at different locations in Reno Creek before reaching the Little Horn and were within a few miles of where the turn reached the Little Horn .
Also note that Custer was to send scouts down Tullocks which is parallel to the Little Horn valley and the direction of that scout would be down stream in relation to the LBH toward Terry and Terry was to send scouts into Tullocks going upstream in relation to the LBH. This the same parallel stretch on the LBH that the village was found.
Seems to me that Terry nailed the location on the LBH.
AZ Ranger
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Post by benteen on Aug 28, 2010 12:32:41 GMT -6
Custer did not deviate from his orders. Terry gave him a large amount of discretion which was necessary in order to track, locate, then prevent the Indians from escaping. The forces under Terry and Gibbons were meant to be the "anvil" which Custer's forces would drive the Indians against. quote] Reddirt I have to disagree with you. Terry and Gibbon were not the anvil,Crook was supposed to be the anvil. Terry/Gibbon/Custer were the hammer. As to Custer's orders Terry made it clear what he wanted Custer to do.What the basically not holding him to it, I have confidence in your zeal etc was what any commander would say. He has no idea what Custer may run into and is giving him the authority to assess and evaluate a situation which may come up. Not to go off on his own and do what he pleases. You will note that he says he wishes Custer to conform to his wishes unless he sees sufficient reason to deviate from them |
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Reddirt
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Post by Reddirt on Aug 28, 2010 14:28:10 GMT -6
The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed. Where does your 40 miles come from Wiggs? Terry guessed the trail would turn toward the Little Horn. It did and was about as close to where Terry could have possibly guessed. When the Indians turned toward the Little Horn they camped at different locations in Reno Creek before reaching the Little Horn and were within a few miles of where the turn reached the Little Horn . Also note that Custer was to send scouts down Tullocks which is parallel to the Little Horn valley and the direction of that scout would be down stream in relation to the LBH toward Terry and Terry was to send scouts into Tullocks going upstream in relation to the LBH. This the same parallel stretch on the LBH that the village was found. Seems to me that Terry nailed the location on the LBH. AZ Ranger I have located the source for the "40" miles in serval sources. I'm sure you can do the same if so inclined. |
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Reddirt
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Post by Reddirt on Aug 28, 2010 14:45:03 GMT -6
Custer did not deviate from his orders. Terry gave him a large amount of discretion which was necessary in order to track, locate, then prevent the Indians from escaping. The forces under Terry and Gibbons were meant to be the "anvil" which Custer's forces would drive the Indians against. quote] Reddirt I have to disagree with you. Terry and Gibbon were not the anvil,Crook was supposed to be the anvil. Terry/Gibbon/Custer were the hammer. As to Custer's orders Terry made it clear what he wanted Custer to do.What the basically not holding him to it, I have confidence in your zeal etc was what any commander would say. He has no idea what Custer may run into and is giving him the authority to assess and evaluate a situation which may come up. Not to go off on his own and do what he pleases. You will note that he says he wishes Custer to conform to his wishes unless he sees sufficient reason to deviate from them |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 28, 2010 19:21:44 GMT -6
The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed. Where does your 40 miles come from Wiggs? Terry guessed the trail would turn toward the Little Horn. It did and was about as close to where Terry could have possibly guessed. When the Indians turned toward the Little Horn they camped at different locations in Reno Creek before reaching the Little Horn and were within a few miles of where the turn reached the Little Horn . Also note that Custer was to send scouts down Tullocks which is parallel to the Little Horn valley and the direction of that scout would be down stream in relation to the LBH toward Terry and Terry was to send scouts into Tullocks going upstream in relation to the LBH. This the same parallel stretch on the LBH that the village was found. Seems to me that Terry nailed the location on the LBH. AZ Ranger I have located the source for the "40" miles in serval sources. I'm sure you can do the same if so inclined. A serval is an African cat. Never read in any of my accounts and testimony the "The village was actually 40 miles or so down river than Terry guessed." If you were reading fiction than I don't care about the source if you have a first hand account or testimony I would be interested. Why would he want to scout Tullocks if he thought the village was 40 miles away near or in Wyoming. The maps Terry had at the time were not correct. I think you are confusing where Terry told Custer to go to and then turn back and come up the LBH not where he thought the village was located. Notice Terry stated that even if the trail turned (that would mean where the village would be located) he wanted Custer to continue on. The headwaters of the Tongue is in Wyoming and I sure Terry didn't want Custer to go into Wyoming and cross over to the Little Horn. That distance is well beyond 40 miles up the Little Horn. AZ Ranger |
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Post by benteen on Aug 29, 2010 14:11:16 GMT -6
Reddirt
I understand that when Crook left so did the anvil. My point was that Terry/Gibbon/ Custer were never meant to be the anvil as you stated. Chalk it up to a little misunderstanding
As to your statement that Custer was meant to scout, find the Indians and drive them. I have no idea where you got that from. AZ posted Terry's entire order to Custer, where do you get from that order your statement about what Custer was suppose to do.
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