Custer's Last T-Shirt

[gary]

By the way Frank, congratulations on the website.

Gary

[Frank]

Thanks man! As Ive said before... it grows slowly but surely . The website of mine is only a "hobby" of mine. It started really small couple years ago and since then it has been growing all the time. I aint making it to be "what I Frank personally know about Indians only" -based website but a website that would give correct info about Plains Indians to anyone anywhere seeking it (no matter where the info came as long as it is correct). No matter if the person seeking answers is a 10 year old boy on his parents computer or some museums professor, my site is open to everyone. Thats why I am VERY pleased to have found this website and all the guys like you, Ephriam, Dietmar, Charlie and all the regulars in here (and milady Miss D ofcourse). So much information shared and people in here surely are 'the top of the world' in this subject, no doubt about that. Sounds big maybe to someones ear but, when you really think about it, that is the truth and its pretty great feeling to be able to talk with people who are top of the class on this subject among the rest 6,587,704,587 people living on this small planet of ours ;D ;D ;D.

[crzhrs]

Frank . . . you have not been here long enough to know CSS opinions. So I will leave it up to you to decide on your own where he is coming from.

One White Scout said soldiers were firing indiscriminately at Indians (Washita) and white captives may have been killed by "friendly fire".

The number of Indians killed at the Washita will never be known for sure . . . there are many conflicting counts.

While Black Kettle was the chief he did not have the ability of a Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse to control warriors or, at best, influence their actions. He may just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time . . . like Sand Creek.

[Frank]

Yeap, thanks cr(a)z(y)h(o)rs(e).... what I mostly would wanna know about this Washita matter is (now since the matter about my websites Washita info came up) that what do you guys think, is that quote from Michnos book on my website "correct" information or is it exaggerated? Here is the whole quote:

Washita River on 12 November, 11 companies of the 7th Cavalry under Lt. Col. George A. Custer, 3 companies of the 3rd Infantry, 1 of the 5th Infantry, 1 of the 38th Infantry, and about 450 wagons set out from Fort Dodgefor Indian territory to seek out hostile Indians. Across a snow-covered landscape Custer followed Indian trails to a 50-lodge Cheyenne village on the banks of the Washita River. Early on the frigid morning of 27 November, nearly 700 men of the 7th Cavalryprepared to attack. To the tune of "Garry Owen", Custer charged into the village with his four battalions: Maj. Joel Elliot with Companies G, H and M came in from the northeast; Capt. William Thompson with Companies B and F, from the south; Lt. John M. Johnson with E and I attacked from the southwest; and Custer with A, C, D and K, from the west. The troops burst into the village, cutting down the Indians as they fled their lodges. The soldiers were also hit: one captain was killed by a bullet in the chest, and another was severely wounded in the abdomen. Maj. Elliot cut loose with 18 men of various companies to chase some Indianswho had escaped to the east, reportedly calling out, "Here goes for a brevet or a coffin". Elliot was cut off and his party killed. During the battle, the Cheyennes killed two of four white captives. It is uncertain whether Custer was able to rescue the other two. After soldiers killed Chiefs Black Kettle and Little Rock, Custer captured the camp, burned tipis and supplies, and shot 875 Indian ponies. As more Indians gathered from other camps downriver, Custer made a feint downstream, sending them back to protect their villages. Doubling back in the gathering darkness, Custer returned to his supply train and headed home, reaching Camp supply on 1 December. Custer captured 53 women and children during the mission and reported 103 Indians killed, though the Cheyennes claimed it was half that number. The army lost 21, with 16 wounded.

This text was copied by Frank with permission of the author Gregory F. Michno from his book ENCYCLOPEDIA of Indian Wars 1850-1890, from pages 226-227.

[crzhrs]

Frank:

That's a accurate synopsis . . . but there is far more to it than that.

Look Here:

freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wynkoop/webdocs/washita.htm


You will get all kinds of reports from primary sources, newspapers, scouts, soldiers, etc.

[gary]

Frank, have a look at my reply #19.

I think that Michno's summary is fair, but it leans towards the military accounts. Note that he only says that Custer "reported 103 indians killed"; not that he (Michno) endorses the figure. My only quibbles with his summary are that Elliott only took 17 men with him and that it has not been proved that the Cheyennes (or indeed any Indians) killed the two captives.

Gary

[Frank]

Nice, thanks man!
I will look into that! Though I need to keep the description of the fight on my own website "quite short & simple". But I will add that link to it and explain that much more details are available through it. This is good, thanks.

[Frank]

gary said:

Frank, have a look at my reply #19.

I think that Michno's summary is fair, but it leans towards the military accounts. Note that he only says that Custer "reported 103 indians killed"; not that he (Michno) endorses the figure. My only quibbles with his summary are that Elliott only took 17 men with him and that it has not been proved that the Cheyennes (or indeed any Indians) killed the two captives.

Gary

Yes, I noticed it. I would have quoted it and added it next to Micho's quote on to my website if the answer would not have been so direct answer to custerstands writing. Wanna make short description ... I would be happy to have it indeed...;D

[Tricia]

frank said:

YEAH I LOVE IT!!

Frank--

Not only do I have the "Homeland Security" t-shirt, but that photo also hung in my grandfather's office whilst he was superintendent of the San Carlos' Apaches. Under the shot of Geronimo and cohorts, it read: "Our helpful employees are always willing to serve you."

Oh, yeah ...
--t.

[Frank]

;D ;D Helpful employees yelling: "Next please..." ;D ;D

[markland]

frank said:

Yeap, thanks cr(a)z(y)h(o)rs(e).... what I mostly would wanna know about this Washita matter is (now since the matter about my websites Washita info came up) that what do you guys think, is that quote from Michnos book on my website "correct" information or is it exaggerated? Here is the whole quote:

Washita River on 12 November, 11 companies of the 7th Cavalry under Lt. Col. George A. Custer, 3 companies of the 3rd Infantry, 1 of the 5th Infantry, 1 of the 38th Infantry, and about 450 wagons set out from Fort Dodgefor Indian territory to seek out hostile Indians. Across a snow-covered landscape Custer followed Indian trails to a 50-lodge Cheyenne village on the banks of the Washita River. Early on the frigid morning of 27 November, nearly 700 men of the 7th Cavalryprepared to attack. To the tune of "Garry Owen", Custer charged into the village with his four battalions: Maj. Joel Elliot with Companies G, H and M came in from the northeast; Capt. William Thompson with Companies B and F, from the south; Lt. John M. Johnson with E and I attacked from the southwest; and Custer with A, C, D and K, from the west. The troops burst into the village, cutting down the Indians as they fled their lodges. The soldiers were also hit: one captain was killed by a bullet in the chest, and another was severely wounded in the abdomen. Maj. Elliot cut loose with 18 men of various companies to chase some Indianswho had escaped to the east, reportedly calling out, "Here goes for a brevet or a coffin". Elliot was cut off and his party killed. During the battle, the Cheyennes killed two of four white captives. It is uncertain whether Custer was able to rescue the other two. After soldiers killed Chiefs Black Kettle and Little Rock, Custer captured the camp, burned tipis and supplies, and shot 875 Indian ponies. As more Indians gathered from other camps downriver, Custer made a feint downstream, sending them back to protect their villages. Doubling back in the gathering darkness, Custer returned to his supply train and headed home, reaching Camp supply on 1 December. Custer captured 53 women and children during the mission and reported 103 Indians killed, though the Cheyennes claimed it was half that number. The army lost 21, with 16 wounded.

This text was copied by Frank with permission of the author Gregory F. Michno from his book ENCYCLOPEDIA of Indian Wars 1850-1890, from pages 226-227.

Frank, look at my web site (under Custer) and see if any of the Washita documents help. The Secretary of Interior's report is somewhere around but I haven't made time to scan, proof, edit (for spelling errors) and format it. One of these days!

freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~familyinformation/#custer

Billy

[harpskiddie]

Frank:

The first sentence of Michno mkes it appear that there were other units than the 7th Cavalry involved in the fight, which is not the case. The 7th left on their sortie from Camp Supply. Check Billy's site for copies of original reports.

Gordie,
be back soon, the scouts have just reported a dog barking ahead...................................

[Frank]

Great thanks Billy & Gordie. I will look into those and make some changes and addings (if its ok to put a link of your website on to mine Billy?) As soon as my frigin website starts to work again that is, my pages are down AGAIN and Im gonna kill my website service provider if they dont start working again soon... I dunno whatta heck they are doing there but apparently some big changes or something and thats why I have been suffering on these "black outs" lately... Damn... well, I guess they'll fix it soon enough...

[clw]

gary said:

There is a growing body of thought that they were in fact killed by the troops. In fact, reading the military accounts, it is difficult to escape that conclusion that Custer et al were protesting too much in an effort to deflect the blame for Clara and Willie's deaths from the military.

How very interesting! Can you elaborate on this a little more or post some references. I'd like to know more about it.

[Banned]

"One White Scout said soldiers were firing indiscriminately at Indians (Washita) and white captives may have been killed by "friendly fire"."

This scout was just Ed Wynkoop's friend, who was a close friend of Black Kettle. Clara Blinn and Willie Blinn were scalped after having be thrown against a tree. Blinn himself was starved to death by the Cheyennes.