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Post by gary on Apr 7, 2007 13:05:43 GMT -6
Try 'Washita Memories' by Richard Hardorff. This book collates the various primary sources; both Cheyenne and military.
Stan Hoig's 'The Battle of the Washita' and Jerome Greene's 'Washita' contain good accounts of the attack.
I think that you are right though. This should have its own thread.
Gary
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Post by gary on Apr 7, 2007 13:12:07 GMT -6
This is an interesting website: home.epix.net/~landis/washita.htmlLodge Pole (Washita) Massacre (November 1868) The Families' Stories. It is produced by Cheyenne historian John Sipes. Gary
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Post by gary on Apr 7, 2007 13:50:29 GMT -6
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 7, 2007 20:49:24 GMT -6
I dont get it now (LOL...maybe it is because Ive been first awake like 24 hours and then slept for 14 and now going back to work again for the next 13 hours... ;D my brains aint working properly I guess and I am in terribly hurry...but do you mean that this short discription of Washita on my website is wrong?: www.franksrealm.com/Indians/Person_facts/washita.html which is taken from Gregory F. Michno's book (with his permission ofcourse) ENCYCLOPEDIA of Indian Wars 1850-1890, from pages 226-227: ...The soldiers were also hit: one captain was killed by a bullet in the chest, and another was severely wounded in the abdomen. Maj. Elliot cut loose with 18 men of various companies to chase some Indianswho had escaped to the east, reportedly calling out, "Here goes for a brevet or a coffin". Elliot was cut off and his party killed. During the battle, the Cheyennes killed two of four white captives. It is uncertain whether Custer was able to rescue the other two. After soldiers killed Chiefs Black Kettle and Little Rock, Custer captured the camp, burned tipis and supplies, and shot 875 Indian ponies. As more Indians gathered from other camps downriver, Custer made a feint downstream, sending them back to protect their villages. Doubling back in the gathering darkness, Custer returned to his supply train and headed home, reaching Camp supply on 1 December. Custer captured 53 women and children during the mission and reported 103 Indians killed, though the Cheyennes claimed it was half that number. The army lost 21, with 16 wounded. I dont have those books you mentioned but I need to remember them if I some day have a chance to buy them. Thanks man.
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Post by gary on Apr 8, 2007 3:45:47 GMT -6
It's a matter of interpretation.
I believe that there was a total of eighteen in Elliott's detachment; Elliott, Sergeant Kennedy and sixteen troopers. They were killed chasing a group of mainly women and children who had fled towards the other camps. The warriors who killed Elliott and his men came from the other camps. They were not from Black Kettle's camp.
Little Rock was killed whilst attempting to protect the fleeing women and children from Elliott. Another Cheyenne and a visiting Kiowa were also killed in this retreat.
Captain Hamilton was killed at Black Kettle's village, together with two troopers. A third trooper died of his injuries.
As I understand it, Custer called the officers together after the attack and asked them for estimates of Cheyenne casualties. It is of course likely that more than one of the officers had seen the same casualties. Their estimates were however totaled to provide the figure of 103 warriors killed. I think that it is now generally accepted that this was an exaggeration.
A good account of the attack from a Cheyenne perspective is contained in 'The Eyes of the Sleepers' by Peter Harrison (Published by the English Westerners Society http://www.english-westerners-society.org.uk).
I think that Greg Michno's 'Encyclopedia of Indian Wars' provides a good overview of the Indian wars. It provides a good summary and chronology of the various battles and attacks. I have found it to be very useful, but I also try to look at other accounts of fights that particularly interest me.
Gary
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Post by gary on Apr 8, 2007 4:05:01 GMT -6
PS
I like the Homeland Security pic. Especially after my struggles with US Customs last year!
Gary
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 8, 2007 8:53:29 GMT -6
We can never be too careful with you Brits!
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 8, 2007 9:42:23 GMT -6
;D ok, thanks for clearing that up. As I said I was working my ass off and I had been up like 2 days in a row so I wasnt even sure what I answered you ;D... I had to check it now again to remember...
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Post by Banned on Apr 9, 2007 9:14:51 GMT -6
About 12 or 14 warriors were killed at the Washita. The figures vary, but most non-military estimates were around these figures. There is evidence that some casualties were counted more than once. Hence the much higher figure of 103 given by Custer. 14 warriors? NO WAY ! Washita prisoners said to Interpreter Richard Curtis that 11 (ELEVEN) warchiefs (WARCHIEFS) were killed at the battle. Cooke's men counted 38 dead warriors in a single ravine near the village. What's fun is that 17 names of warriors and 11 names of warchiefs can be counted with Indian testimonies alone. Mr Hardhorff's book is saying that Black Kettle's men were innocent and that their village was peaceful - "the most disturbing event in the American west" says the cover. It's an outright lie. Black Kettle's village was guilty of numerous crimes, including rapes, assassination, rape against children, kidnappings, stealings. Chief Little Rock, the second-in-command chief in the village, admitted these crimes on August 20 1868 to Agent Edward Wynkoop. We have the entire testimony of this chief who said that Black Kettle welcomed the murderers after their massacres in Kansas. We even have the names of "one of those who raped a woman" or "one of those who caught two girls". We have scalps recovered in the Cheyenne village. Clara Blinn and Willie Blinn, massacred by the Cheyennes. We even have the testimony of Black Kettle himself who admitted the crimes on November 20 1868, one week before his business was closed forever. Today, Cheyennes are rewriting their history and honoring Black Kettle, whose village was a rogue one and who suffered a just battle which ended with more than 100 warriors killed and at last 18-25 civilians (according to George Bent and the Kiowas). When Custer got back to the Washita village, he found that the number of bodies still on the ground was far higher than 103, a and that the casulaties in warriors "far exceed 103" - he believed 140 casulaties in total. Evidence of soldiers protecting civilians and avoiding their killing are available in Greene's book "Washita". The Emporia News reported on January 1869 that the Leavenworth Conservative had made an inquiry and found that 150 Indians had been killed during the battle. Washita was a BATTLE, period. 11 warchiefs dead is by itself a great victory. Most of their warriors were also killed, according to Moving By.
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Post by Banned on Apr 9, 2007 9:19:57 GMT -6
Ben Clark's report for Custer on the night of November 26-27 1868 :
"There will be 150 warriors in the village" (Osages estimated that there would be more warriors, which proved eventually true)
I wonder how Mister Hardhorff explain that his "peaceful village" contained white prisoners (tortured by the Cheyenne for a month - or starved to death like Willie Blinn) and 11 warchiefs (with 2 other warchiefs: Black Kettle and Little Rock)
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Post by Banned on Apr 9, 2007 9:20:56 GMT -6
As I understand it, Custer called the officers together after the attack and asked them for estimates of Cheyenne casualties. It is of course likely that more than one of the officers had seen the same casualties. Their estimates were however totaled to provide the figure of 103 warriors killed. I think that it is now generally accepted that this was an exaggeration.
Nope. It was too LOW. 120 warriors were killed at least. I have all the reports in my book in French and I am too lazy to translate all, but look back on Jerome Greene's book and even Stan Hoig about the number of warchiefs killed.
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Post by Banned on Apr 9, 2007 9:31:45 GMT -6
Historian Jerome Greene :
"Soldiers evidently took measures to protect the women and children."
("Washita", Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, page 189.)
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 9, 2007 9:48:29 GMT -6
Excellent info!! Thanks a million custerstands!
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Post by gary on Apr 9, 2007 11:31:56 GMT -6
Not so fast Frank...
I don't think that the "Cheyennes are rewriting their history" Custerstands. Black Kettle was always seen as a peace chief, except by those who coveted the Cheyenne territory.
Custerstands, you say that over 100 warriors were killed and then increase the figure to 120. This figure is just not possible.
Leaving aside Richard Hardorff's book, you will see from Jerome Greene's "Washita" that there were 51 lodges housing 250 people in Black Kettle's village (I do not believe that the number of lodges, which is also given by Hoig, is questioned by any commentator). This latter figure is of course based upon the ratio of six people per lodge. It was usually estimated that there would be one or two warriors per lodge.
This would mean that there was not likely to be more than 100 warriors in total in the village. The real figure is probably more like 60 to 75. It is therefore highly unlikely that 100 to 120 warriors were killed.
Custer's own scout, J S Morrison, gave an estimate of twenty warrior casualties plus approximately 40 women and children killed. Stan Hoig seems to accept that more than 12-14 warriors were killed, but he comments that if there had been as many casualties as Custer claimed, then the whole village would have had to have been killed or captured.
Returning to Black Kettle, Little Rock simply did not say that "Black Kettle welcomed the murderers after their massacres in Kansas". Little Rock (who died heroically defending women and children at the Washita) said that "another small party [of the warriors who had carried out the depredation - not the whole war party] returned to Black Kettle's village". He makes no mention of a welcome, either from Black Kettle or anyone else.
Little Rock was quite candid. He said "I do not wish to be at war with the whites, and there are many of my nation who feel as I do, and who are in no way guilty, and do not wish to be punished for the bad acts of those who are guilty".
By the same token, Black Kettle also made it clear that he wanted peace. He did not "admit the crimes" as you say, Custerstands. What he actually said was "I have always done my best to keep my young men quiet, but some will not listen... But we all want peace... I cannot speak [sic] nor control the Cheyennes north of the Arkansas".
The fact is that Custer attacked a predominantly peaceful village. It may have contained a few warriors who had been involved in the recent depredations, but the majority of the village was innocent.
Indeed, if you analyse what Little Rock said, you will see that the majority involved in the depredations actually went unpunished. To that extent, the attack was not only a travesty, but it failed to target those that Custer allegedly wanted to punish.
As far as "soldiers protecting civilians and avoiding their killing" is concerned, this is simply not supported by the evidence. Soldiers were killing women and children. Ben Clarke reported this to Custer "and asked him if it was his wish that these people should be killed". It was only then that Custer told Clarke to "give his compliments" to the officer in charge and "ask him to stop it".
It is also worth contemplating that Black Kettle was not actually a vigorous young warrior. He was over seventy at the time of his death.
As for the question: was it a battle or a massacre? It is interesting to note that Captain Benteen felt the need to use inverted commas when writing to a friend about "our 'battle of the Washita' ". In his ironic account of the aftermath of the battle, he talks of the dead bodies of a woman and a child. No mention is made of warrior casualties. Benteen clearly did not think that it was an heroic victory.
We also have the allegations of rape. There is no doubt that the depredating warriors committed rapes. But this is also exactly what happened to at least some of the the Cheyenne women after the attack. They were raped by some of the officers. (see Brill and the Benteen/Goldin letters).
Finally, Custerstands, you mention Clara Blinn and her son. The allegation in relation to their deaths is in fact that they were killed by the Arapahos, not the Cheyennes; they were not in the Cheyenne village. Indeed, the military accounts of the discovery of their bodies and wounds are contradictory. There is a growing body of thought that they were in fact killed by the troops. In fact, reading the military accounts, it is difficult to escape that conclusion that Custer et al were protesting too much in an effort to deflect the blame for Clara and Willie's deaths from the military.
Gary
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Apr 9, 2007 11:33:47 GMT -6
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