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Post by clw on Feb 26, 2007 15:07:33 GMT -6
We do now! Thought so to, but I wondered if somehow I'd missed a scout named Rivers. Perfect timing CH, I just watched it again last night.
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 27, 2007 2:34:20 GMT -6
alanw,
Agree, it's not perfect, but I thought it got more right than it got wrong ...
One particularly gaping hole was the total absence of the entire right wing. We weren't even told they existed apart from one throwaway line in the commentary re "the three companies Custer had left behind on the ridge", and they didn't feature on the maps. As far as the viewer could tell, Custer was doing the whole thing with just two companies. They must have had to pare it right down to fit the one-hour time slot, as it does look as if they'd originally intended to include it. (I think the buckskinned officer who reports the hardtack box is supposed to be Keogh, and we get that blink-and-you-miss-it glimpse of his/Comanche's fall -- just after the Crazy Horse bravery runs sequence. Which itself is a bit naughty, as that's not the way White Bull tells it!)
Another hole is the nepotism/Custer Clan angle ... but I don't think that was a cut. There was no hint anywhere of anyone who could have been TWC or Boston or Autie Reed, or even Cooke, so one has to assume they'd decided from the start to go for a slimline version as far as characters are concerned. Speaking parts only for Custer, Kellogg, Benteen, Reno, Weir, Martini, and the possible Keogh, plus an unidentified sergeant/whoever in the Washita flashback. (And for Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse on the Indian side.) Probably a good decision in a way, because it kept the focus very much on Custer himself; with such a magnetic performance from Stephens, it made for better drama that way.
Something interesting (I thought): a friend who's not a Custer buff at all also watched it -- and her first question was, "was Reno having a relationship with Hodgson?". Intriguing that that's the way it came across to the objective viewer, eh?
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Post by fiddlersgreen on Mar 3, 2007 14:09:26 GMT -6
I'm glad on the whole that everybody seemed to like the show. We found a location on the Cheyenne River in South Dakota that looks more like the actual battlfield than anything else I have ever seen. There was even the perfect "deep ravine" but it was cut from the script before we filmed it. We tried to get as many details into the story as we could. We had the principals on horses of the right color, costumes, weapons, (there was a scene where Kellogg pulls out his Spencer just before the big fight and checks the action...but it was cut.) Tom Custer's scenes were cut way back to where he appears as a generic Officer but he rode a light sorrel and carried an Officer's model Springfield. I had a pair of buckskin leggin's made for him but they were a scoch too small. We had a nickel plated colt for Reno but for some reason it did not get to set the day of filming his big scene! Cooke had a scofield and a "long tom". I would hope that if Hollywood is going to tackle this story again they come scout South Dakota. Our "base camp" was only 10 minutes away from the motel rooms in Wall.....we saved Production $10,000.00 is gas by being so close. I wish you folks could have seen everything we shot....a lot was cut....and it looked as good as we could make it! Why hasn't EVERY film used actual gray horses for Company E? White hats for the 3 companies that wore 'em?If we had 100 soldiers instead of 20 we could have made an epic! One big mistake I caught.....the order is given to dismount and the trumpeter sounds a "charge". That was dubbed in later because our trumpeter was in the hospital at that moment having his apendix removed (but note the musician stripes on the legs.) By the way, I was a seasonal Park Ranger at LBH for 2 seasons.
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Post by markland on Mar 3, 2007 18:54:07 GMT -6
Fiddler, were you part of the production staff? If so, you all still did an admirable job considering the BBC's historically low-budget. I too wish the parts you mention had been included. If they were, I would snap up the DVD whenever released.
However, while only my opinion, the writer portrayed GAC as a tad too whiny for my tastes-actually at times he comes across as suffering from some male version of PMS. And trust me, I am not a Custerholic!
Be good,
Billy
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Post by elisabeth on Mar 3, 2007 23:53:33 GMT -6
Fiddlersgreen, great job! Now what we need is a "director's cut" putting back all the stuff that was excised ...
I've just watched the DVD of the whole series now, and can report that the production values are equally excellent throughout. The Billy the Kid episode -- though beautifully acted -- is a bit confused/confusing on the Lincoln County war; the script gets itself diverted onto a rather silly Big Theme, the question of Lew Wallace promising Billy a pardon, and it messes up the story a touch. And we don't get nearly as much of Pat Garrett as I'd have liked. Still, enjoyable ... The Gunfight at the OK Corral episode is really very nice indeed. Liam Cunningham is terrific as Wyatt Earp -- positively scary, not a man you'd want to cross at all. It goes into the various financial/business shenanigans underlying the whole thing, and then into the legal proceedings that followed: fascinating stuff. (It was touched on in the splendid Hour of the Gun, but this film goes into much more detail.) The only downside: as with the Custer episode, it uses largely British actors -- and while in the Custer one the accents (to my British ear at least) seemed spot on, in this one some of them tended to wander a bit. Especially Christopher Fulford, who plays Ike Clanton. Even so, for anyone who's either ordered the series DVD or intends to watch the series when it goes out on the Discovery Channel, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Good stuff.
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Post by fiddlersgreen on Mar 4, 2007 13:42:46 GMT -6
I only worked on the Little Big Horn episode but I am looking forward to seeing the entire series. Wyatt Earp was filmed near Wilcox,AZ on the set where "Tombstone" was filmed. The plan was to film "Billy the Kid" in Spain. I can tell you that the Director Dave Stewart had read a box of books on the battle but had not visited the battlefield until about 6 Months before shooting the Program. I took him down Reno Creek,,,starting at the morass going west. He got to see the battlefield through the 7th Cavalry's eyes.(We took our time, the entire tour took 5 1/2 hours.) His perception of the battle was much different than he imagined from just reading about it. This helped a great deal in putting the story together. The script had to be pared down several times for a 1 hour show....and was pared down still more in the editing room. There was a lot of talk about making a 2 hour program before filming but the big bosses would not go for it. As far as I know there is no plan for a "Director's Cut". Dave said that he just make the shows...what happens after that is someone elses job. The British Actors brought in were phenominal....top guys who were NOT doing it for the money. I guess by law since it is public money at the BBC, if a British actor can be cast it has to be so. Originally Mitch Boyer was set to have a half Lakota actor from South Dakota playing him but Jim was cast instead.Incidently, the actor playing Sitting Bull was recast 2 days before filming his scenes and the actor playing Crazy Horse was reprising the role from a History Channel program made 2 years earlier. I made the suggestion that the actor playing Benteen go for a Virginia/West Missouri accent ... I don't know of that ever happening in a show before. He pulled it off rather well. (This is the actor that was thrown out of the window in "Braveheart".) Everybody on the show cared about getting it as right as we could.....time and budget were the limiting factors. One thing that I wish came off better.....showing that the 3 companies on Battle Ridge were put there awaiting the arrival of the pack train and the extra 120 men with it. They were to immediatly join Yate's Battallion after linking up. Yates ran into a "warm reception", dismounted his troops, links horses and forms a skirmish line. The horse holders were flanked and the horses run off leaving Co F on foot. This was EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in the research done by Mike Donahue. Many Indians coming over from the Reno side talked of seeing the Cavalry & Infantry down near the river. This was not clear in the program.....due to time restriction.We filmed it though.When it gets to American Television it will be much harder to tell the story with all the cuts made for commercials. Also very disappointing to me was leaving out E companies last stand and the "deep ravine". There was just NO TIME! Tony Smart was the stunt co-ordinator (he worked on the horse stunts for "Braveheart") Verne Crofoot was the armourer (credits include "Last of the Mohicans", "The Alamo" "The Patriot") The 1st AD had worked on "Secrets of Narnia" I could go on and on. All took a paycut to work on this show. It was the most pleasant filming experience that I have ever had. By the way...Mike Donahue was very pleased which is what I most wanted. He suggested me for the job. We were rommates at the LBH when I was a Ranger there.
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Post by harpskiddie on Mar 4, 2007 16:29:07 GMT -6
You lot did a bang up job, and all of you should take a great deal of pride in what you were able to accomplish.
Thanks,
Gordie
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 4, 2007 17:49:04 GMT -6
Hi Fiddlersgreen
As a BBC licence payer I have to say congratulations on some great work.
I have tried to stir up some interest in a debate on some of the controversial issues on BBC web sites e.g. the theory about the poor crossing at MT Ford but without much success.
It will be a shame if we cannot get the 2 hour version. Might the US National Park Service have some cash that could be used to grease the BBC's palm to produce a longer version that could be shown at the actual site?
Actually it is rather fun to think of a DVD that could include several different versions to appeal to those with different theories - Custer did have a plan, Custer did not have a plan, Benteen was deliberately delaying, Benteen was not late, there were noncoms in the village at Ford B, the noncoms had all gone to Ford D etc etc.
Regards
Mike
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Post by elisabeth on Mar 5, 2007 4:32:49 GMT -6
Great idea, Mike! Even more fun than the computer game!
Fiddlersgreen, I'm so glad you suggested the accent for Benteen. I don't recall it ever being done before, either -- and I'm convinced it played a part in his interactions with Custer. Especially given what we know about Custer's own manner of speech, fast and staccato. Benteen would be able to annoy him magnificently with even his most harmless remarks, and all the better when he set out to do so ... Didn't they play the Washita/letter scene beautifully? The whole relationship summed up in just those few seconds of screen-time.
I thought the Crazy Horse actor looked familiar. Good to know why!
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Buckshot
New Member
CAGB (Custer Association of Great Britain) Founder Member.
Posts: 2
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Post by Buckshot on Mar 5, 2007 14:02:10 GMT -6
Fiddlersgreen, many thanks for your wonderful insight into this documentary.
There’s one think I’d like to ask. Next time you see your buddy Mike Donahue, please tell him from me, that I found his ridiculous comment “Again we don’t know exactly what was in Benteen’s head er.. we know that perhaps er.. maybe back of his mind, which of course we can’t read, but perhaps he was thinking, well Custer’s (pause) we’re gonna leave Custer out to hang for himself.” Disgusting disgraceful, insulting and downright distasteful.
It just beggars belief when we learn from you what interesting items were cut, this worthless piece of bullsh*t was kept in.
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Post by elisabeth on Mar 6, 2007 5:32:02 GMT -6
All: thanks to mcaryf, there's now an alternative means of venting our wrath about the cuts, the Benteen statement, etc. A thread on this has been started on the BBC History Magazine's discussion board: www.bbchistoryforum.com/tm.asp?m=33Always a sporting chance that someone at the BBC pays attention to the messages there ...?
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