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Post by fred on Dec 31, 2019 6:36:37 GMT -5
... did you cone to that conclusion in your book too? Yes. Best wishes and a Happy New Year, Fred. |
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Post by shan on Dec 31, 2019 14:29:19 GMT -5
Fred,
Excellent work, for you have made, as usual, a well argued and comprehensive case against Kanipe's unlikely story. One that it's very hard to refute, and so, at least as far as I'm concerned, I think we can put this one to bed, the man was keeping himself well out of harms way, as were a few others, but we'll not get into that at present.
But look, whilst your here: and given that your the go to man for research, I'd like to ask you yet another question. One I've not seen discussed before. Long time back, I seem to remember reading, and I'm afraid that I can't remember the source, that there was a small camp of Brules over on the east side of the river. Again, I can't remember the exact location, but the source implied that because of some antagonism between and them and some of the other Sioux, they'd chosen to keep a little distance between themselves and the rest, in which case, if true, and I'm guessing here, could they have been located somewhere opposite the wooded area where Reno ended up keeping the horses?
Now as I say, I can't remember this being discussed much, either on the various boards, or indeed in most of the books that I've read, and what's more, I think that had it been in the general area that I've just suggested, then one would have thought that it would have merited at least a mention in some of the Arikara narratives, after all, they were over there stealing horses, so they should know.
On a different tack, I like to raise one other point, which might have some bearing on the previous question. I'm afraid I've always had huge difficulty with Martini's supposed observation a peaceful camp full of children and dogs playing etc, oh, and by the way, I'm assuming that when he saw what he saw, if indeed he did, then he would have been with Custer in the general vicinity of 3,411. But if he's right and he's telling the truth, then it begs several questions.
Firstly, if Kanipe was right, and Custer's men were indeed shouting and yelling as they galloped along the bluff, which in itself would have raised some dust, then how come the indians down below were unaware of it? In which case bang goes your peaceful camp.
And secondly: and I'm sure your book will deal with this, wasn't Reno starting to make his move down the valley by then, and more pertinently, given that the scouts had already set off by then and were riding up ahead, maybe as much as a mile up ahead, how come they ~ the Indians that is ~ weren't aware of that either, for I suspect that there was quite a possibility that their ride may have been accompanied by a good deal of yelling and maybe some high spirited firing?
Finally, and hopefully my last question leads me back to my first. I'm assuming that Custer couldn't see very much of the Indian camp from 3411, for apart from anything else, it's now thought that the tree cover was much denser back then than it is now, and given that we know that the Hunkpapa camp was located behind the trees, could it be, that if there was indeed a small camp of Brules on the East bank, so was it them that Martini was looking down on. Look, you've been there yourself Fred, so could they have seen a small camp located under the bluffs?
Lastly, and I'm sure that your aware of this, it's nice to see you dip back in and get people at it as we say over here, for things have grown very quiet of late. Anyway, happy new year everyone, here's wishing you all well.
Shan, David
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Post by fred on Dec 31, 2019 16:22:17 GMT -5
David,
Nice to see you here again.
Let me try to answer you as briefly as possible.
Yes, there are several accounts, plus some archaeological work attesting to a small camp east of the river in the flats below Weir Point. Indian accounts allude to Brulé Sioux from the Spotted Tail Agency pitching camp there and if Martini saw-- more like heard-- anything at all, he saw the few lodges of these Indians, probably no more than a few dozen. In addition, troopers' accounts mention receiving fire from Indians on the east side of the river from just these flats. There is too much scientific and circumstantial evidence to ignore their presence.
If Martini saw anything, it was the back-end of three riders standing at the edge of the bluffs. He may have glanced over, saw no activity among the half-dozen or so lodges, saw a couple of dogs, and left it at that. If so, then the handful of warriors were already engaged in the brush along the river, firing at the troops they could see in the timber. There is absolutely no corroboration of Martini's fantasies, not from Kanipe or anyone in the valley. There are, however, several accounts of Indians in those flats, so as far as I am concerned, they were there.
The terrain in the valley has changed dramatically since 1876 and that goes especially for the timbered areas, so your observation about Custer not seeing a lot of the village from 3,411 is correct. As for Custer being spotted, I believe that happened earlier than many believe, but the Indians' reaction time was slow, at least until they realized he was heading farther north.
Anyway, since you are much closer to 2020 than I am, Happy New Year, David. May it be healthy and joyous for you and all those you love.
Very best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by shan on Jan 1, 2020 6:05:11 GMT -5
Thanks Fred, so I didn't imagine it then. But then as always, as with almost every event during this battle, this prompts a few questions, not least Thompson's convoluted account of his wanderings.
Again, like some of Martini's statements, I'm in two mind over some of the things Thompson says. On first reading it my initial response was to dismiss it completely as a piece of fiction, and I still think that most of it is, however, at least there are a few witnesses, for he and Wilson were seen by others, including some of the scouts, so who knows.
But here's the thing, if, as you say, the Brule camp was located somewhere on the flats below Weir point, then how come Thomson never mentions it, for surely this would have included part of the area where he was roaming around? Okay, I could understand it if he said that saw it but managed to keep well away from it, but as far as I'm aware he makes no mention of it. Likewise, those Arikara scouts who were scrambling up the bluffs in the Cedar Coulee area: the ones who were fired on by some of Custer's men, again, one would have thought that they might have seen it down below off towards their left, and then what about the Crow scouts who mention going down to the river to get a drink in much he same area, yet another unlikely story in my opinion, given what was going on at the time.
But look, perhaps I'm being a bit hard on everyone, for as I've seen for myself, the whole area is cut up with a maze of ravines and gullies, and then we must never forget that all these men, whether they be red or white, had other, far more important things on their minds than taking time out to examine their surroundings. All the same, given the circumstances, they had to be aware of the dangers, and what was around them, and yet we find no mention of this small camp.
David
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Post by noggy on Jan 1, 2020 9:42:38 GMT -5
Geir, When thinking about the veracity of Kanipe's claim to have been a messenger, answer these questions: Fantastic, Fred. I feel proud to have thought about 2 1/2 of your points all on my own! I`ll sit down and read more carefully through this when I get home. Thank you. Happy new year. Geir |
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