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Post by Scout on Nov 17, 2005 8:30:37 GMT -6
Good point Twomoons...I agree. The whole timeline thing is pure speculation, even actual participants disagree on how long Reno was engaged. Wallace's 45 minutes is the longest and yet others give 20 to 30 minutes. Some things are unknowing.
I agree with you on Brininstool and Camp. Camp is the granddaddy of em' all. Between 1908 and 1919 he interviewed over 200 Indian war veterans including Godfrey, Kanipe, Two Moon, White Bull and numerous others. His 'notes' are truly the holy grail of LBH research. He helped reestablish a number of Indian war sites and was relentless in his quest for eyewitness accounts to numerous Indian war battles. All Custer books credit his writings and research. Think of what it would be like without his interviews and notes. He is one of the most underated historians of our time. His untimely death was truely tragic. Wish he had lived another 20 plus years and written his book.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 17, 2005 8:47:39 GMT -6
Camp was in the process of gathering all his info to write a book on the LBH. Unfortunately he died before he could do so. I wonder what his take would have been on the events surrounding the battle?
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Post by Treasuredude on Nov 17, 2005 15:16:08 GMT -6
Camp was in the process of gathering all his info to write a book on the LBH. Unfortunately he died before he could do so. I wonder what his take would have been on the events surrounding the battle? I admire those who have worked to organize and publish what was in Camp's notes. From what I understand, the guy wasn't the most organized and wrote notes on everything from paper to napkins to matchbooks.
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Post by Scout on Nov 20, 2005 7:24:40 GMT -6
Treasuredude,
Yea, Camp was generally unprepared when interviewing people. He never carried any paper and apparently wrote his notes on anything he could get his hands on, as you point out. He was the editor of a railroad magazine, so he was a professional journalist, just a rather quirky one. Just imagine if he had kept a real journal for his notes. What would that be worth? Instead he opted for hundreds of scraps of paper in all sizes. Go figure.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 6, 2005 16:31:42 GMT -6
How could I have forgotten CUSTER'S FIELD: A SCENE OF SICKENING GHASTLY HORROR by Francis B Taunton
An excellent "little" booklet with details on the location of the dead, who died where, numbers of dead, condition of the dead, type of resistance by companies, mutilation, maps, photos, and lots more.
A little tidbit from the booklet:
"Our camp is surrounded with ghastly remains of the recent butchery. The days are scorching hot and still, and the air is thick with the stench of the festering bodies . . . a brooding sorrow hangs like a pall over our every thought. It seems to horrible for belief--that we must wake and find it only a shuddering dream. Every sound comes to us in a muffled monotone, and a dull, dogged feeling of revenge seems to be the prevailing sentiment. The repulsive looking green flies that have been feasting on the swollen bodies of the dead, are attracted to the camp fires by the smell of cooking meat. They come in such swarms that a persevering swing of tree branch is necessary to keep them from settling on the food. They crawl over the neck and face, into eyes, and ears, under the sleeves with a greedy eagerness and such clammy, stick feet as to drive taste and inclination for food away . . . Let us bury our dead and flee from this rotting atmosphere."
This from Capt. Walter Clifford, Company E of Gibbons command.
Clifford short paragraph of what he witnessed speaks volumes of what it must have been like on the battlefield.
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Post by fred on Dec 7, 2005 10:25:37 GMT -6
Twomoons--
As usual, your comments are the best! I show my ignorance here by admitting to never having read either Brininstool's or Camp's works, directly. I do, however, have Graham's "The Story of the Little Big Horn."
You & I have discussed some of this-- privately-- & I have to reiterate that I like Gray's work a lot. I do, however, agree w/ you about a lot of his timing scenarios & they do lead to some problematic conclusions. Darling may be guilty of the same thing. Pennington addressed some of this-- cursorily-- but never really followed through, choosing just to address the whole timing issue w/ another name, "time-event-time" analysis. I've discussed this w/ him, but I'm still clueless!
I have to say that Michno-- in his defense-- only used Gray's timing to set up his narratives. He makes this very clear at the beginning of "Lakota Noon," so I can't put him in the same "blame category" as Gray. Gray's value-- to me-- is perspective because he uses it in conjunction w/ speeds & distances. By its own nature, it is "guideline" only & if Gray accepted his scenarios as fact, then the blame can certainly be justified. Some of the problems you pick up w/ this type of analysis, is the variance of speeds & the questionable locations of certain landmarks, e.g., the "morass," the "lone tepee," the varying speeds Custer's column traveled at as it moved down Reno Creek, etc. So I cut Michno complete slack when it comes to timing. It's really an issue he ignores, rather than one he perpetrates or perpetuates. If you look at his Indian narratives, he does not cleanse them of their varying & oftimes contradictory time descriptions.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by El Crab on Dec 8, 2005 2:31:34 GMT -6
In no particular order:
The Custer Myth Son of the Morning Star Lakota Noon Custer in '76 Centennial Campaign Custer's Luck I Fought With Custer
I will only list 7, since I don't have a vast collection. Plus, it matches up nicely with the subject. As for ones I would not recommend to a newbie, Gray's Last Campaign and Fox's Custer's Last Battle would be two I'd not recommend.
One thing I would recommend, and this comes from a recent happening in my life, is the Nat'l Geographic article. I would also suggest if you hand that to someone, give them a very brief update on the whole "Crazy Horse from the north, Gall from the south" thing. I mention the article because not only was it the very first thing I read and thus hooked me, I was at work the other day and this guy was sitting next to me. It was a slow day and he had forgotten his book. I was reading my book on the Zulu War and had the magazine in my bag. I offered it to him, since it had two rather interesting articles: Titanic and LBH. He read it and was hooked. He had a very basic and limited grasp of the subject, and had seen Fox's Discovery show at some point. He wants to talk to me about it sometime and I'm going to suggest some further reading and give him a little more info on the battle. And just before he engrossed himself in the article, I made sure to point out that the map showing the Crazy Horse to the north was outdated and incorrect.
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Post by fred on Dec 8, 2005 6:42:43 GMT -6
Crab--
While I couldn't even begin to say which books I would start a neophyte on, you are absolutely correct about the Gray & Fox books. They just happen to be my 2 favorites, but they are clearly NOT for someone just starting out on this subject.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 8, 2005 12:36:38 GMT -6
I still say CUSTER'S LUCK By Edgar Stewart is one of the best of the LBH books and one that would be great for first-time readers.
Objective and full of information without confusing neo-phytes.
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Post by El Crab on Dec 8, 2005 15:05:05 GMT -6
You can find fault with all theories based on the info. Gray is no different. He just went a vastly different route than others. Michno used Indian accounts pieced together, Fox used field work.
If one major Indian account was proven to have been utterly fabricated, doesn't that throw a wrench in Michno's Lakota Noon? And if we come to find out that 25% of the cartridges were not fired by whom we thought fired them, wouldn't that screw Fox's theory? How is it different for them than it is for Gray?
All the theories are conjecture based on what we perceive to be evidence. But no one truly knows, since all the types of evidence have flaws.
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Post by fred on Dec 8, 2005 15:29:10 GMT -6
Crab--
You're right to a degree. Patterns, however, develop, both in archeology & history. White Cow Bull, for example, the only NAMED Sioux warrior at Ford B when soldiers approached, claimed to have been everywhere on the battlefield & claimed to have shot virtually every soldier there was, including Custer at Ford B. Obviously, the Sioux' used-car-salesman has been largely discredited (except by Pennington). Gray's timing analysis-- largely centered around Wallace's times-- clearly has flaws. This whole thing is like a poorly cut jigsaw puzzle of a blizzard in the Yukon during January: a lot of white, a lot of guessing. We have to start somewhere, however; we have to believe in something. We have to trust someone. When the patterns develop from that trust, then maybe we can take the next steps-- backwards, forwards, sideways. It's all we have. The alternative is to study videotape & ask, Why, rather than all the other questions that permeate these pages.
GASP!
Best wishes, Crab, Fred.
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shawn
Junior Member
My sons and I...Reno Hill June 26th 2006
Posts: 98
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Post by shawn on Jan 11, 2006 23:39:10 GMT -6
My favorite is "66 years in Custers Shadow"...it reads like an old timer explaining things around a campfire. There are pull out maps and stuff that shows where casings and things were found, but mine didnt have any. Anyway, its a fun read.
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Post by fred on Jan 12, 2006 16:24:12 GMT -6
Shawn--
Welcome to Never-Never Land!
Your book... is it fiction or non-fiction?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 12, 2006 18:09:39 GMT -6
I guess maybe I should put up some of my favorite books on this business, so, in no particular order, here goes:
Archeology, History, & Custer's Last Battle by Richard Allan Fox, Jr. Lakota Noon by Greg Michno Custer's Last Campaign by John S. Gray The Mystery of E Troop by Michno Little Big Horn Diary by James Willert Men With Custer by Ken Hammer or whomever Little Bighorn Mysteries by Vern Smalley More Little Bighorn Mysteries by Smalley
There are some others I like a lot-- Pennington, Overfield, Greene, Liddic-- but I don't refer to them as much. And it's been a long time since I read Graham, Stewart, Marquis, et al, so I have to go back & read them again. They'll probably add to my list.
Best wishes, Fred.
P.S.-- Diane, where the heck is Twomoons? FCW
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 12, 2006 21:43:57 GMT -6
Fred, TM has disappeared before, taken a break from us, and returned.
Earth calling Two Moons . . . . Earth calling Two Moons! ;D
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