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Post by elisabeth on Dec 9, 2005 11:36:02 GMT -6
Diane,
About Wyllyams, I only know what Dr. William Bell says in his "New Tracks in North America", which is: "He was an Englishman, educated at Eton, and of good family, but while sowing his wild oats, he had made a fatal alliance in London, and gone to grief. Disowned by his family, he had emigrated to America, joined the Army, and was daily expecting promotion out of the ranks."
Very happy to do a follow-up! Thanks!
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Post by fred on Dec 9, 2005 12:52:14 GMT -6
Sounds like Forbes, too.
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 11, 2005 6:17:10 GMT -6
I thought I'd read somewhere that Forbes' trouble was something more like gambling debts. Wasn't his true identity discovered because they found a letter from his mother saying his difficulties had all been sorted out now and he could come home? But I suppose that could apply just as well to paying off, or marrying off, some unfortunate "alliance" ...
Grrrrrrr. You've got me interested now!
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Post by fred on Dec 11, 2005 7:38:34 GMT -6
Elisabeth--
You are correct: gambling debts. When he enlisted in the U.S. he used his brother-in-law's name, Hiley. He had-- best guess-- 3 brothers & 2 sisters. He wasn't quite 23 when he enlisted. Typical English rake. (Joke)
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by markland on Dec 11, 2005 8:29:22 GMT -6
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Post by fred on Dec 11, 2005 8:46:31 GMT -6
Looks like a girl I used to go out with.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 12, 2005 12:03:59 GMT -6
<WARNING: NOT FOR THE WEAK OF STOMACH>
Which brings us to the age-old question: Was that torture, mutilation, or a cultural meaning? Did the arrows mean more than the obvious, was the slit from the abdomen to the sternum of cultural significance? And the arrow in the penis area?
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 12, 2005 12:34:02 GMT -6
Crzhrs -- Interestingly, Dr. Bell sets out to answer that very question. He talks about how "each of these tribes has a different sign by which it is known", and goes on:
"The sign of the Cheyenne, or "Cut-arm", is made in peace by drawing the hand across the arm, to imitate cutting it with a knife; that of the Arapahoe, or "Smeller tribe", by seizing the nose with the thumb and fore-finger; of the Sioux, or "Cut-throat", by drawing the hand across the throat. The Comanche, or "Snake Indian", waves his hand and arm, in imitation of the crawling of a snake; the Crow imitates with his hands the flapping of wings; the Pawnee, or "Wolf Indian", places two fingers erect on either side of his head, to represent pointed ears; the Blackfoot touches the heel, and then the toe, of the right foot; and the Kiowa's most usual sign is to imitate the act of drinking.
"If we now turn to the body of poor Sergeant Wyllyams, we shall have no difficulty in recognising some meaning in the wounds. The muscles of the right arm, hacked to the bone, speak of the Cheyennes, or "Cut arms"; the nose slit denotes the "Smeller tribe", or Arapahoes; and the throat cut bears witness that the Sioux were also present. There were, therefore, amongst the warriors Cheyennes, Arapahoes, and Sioux. It was not till some time afterwards that I knew positively what these signs meant, and I have not yet discovered what tribe was indicated by the incisions down the thighs, and the laceration of the calves of the legs, in oblique parallel gashes. The arrows also varied in make and colour,according to the tribe; and it was evident, from the number of different devices, that warriors from several tribes had each purposely left one in the dead man's body."
Dr. Bell was a medical doctor, plus also an amateur ethnologist and naturalist, and by the time this book was published (1870) was a Fellow of the Royal Geographical and Geological Societies, so he'll have been pretty sure of his facts before publishing, one would suppose. He doesn't say where he got the information, though.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 12, 2005 12:54:53 GMT -6
Very interesting, Elisabeth. I hadn't considered that the lacerations might be a way of marking the body, a tribe's signature so to speak. I would like to know if that is fact or simply Dr. Bell's theory.
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jjm
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by jjm on Dec 12, 2005 13:05:32 GMT -6
I believe Henry Carrington also wrote about this after seeing the bodies following the Fetterman Massacre. I suspect, however, that this kind of mutilation was mixed in with sheer rage.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 12, 2005 13:23:12 GMT -6
<Very interesting, Elisabeth. I hadn't considered that the lacerations might be a way of marking the body, a tribe's signature so to speak. I would like to know if that is fact or simply Dr. Bell's theory. >
It is a fact, however Dr. Bell was very astute, knowledgable, and had an understanding of Plains Indian culture. Alas he was in the minority while others attributed the "mutilations" to savagry or non-Christian values.
PS: I see you substituted my "P" word with thingy. The word is in the dictionary and used in medical terms everywhere. Thingy, I think is juvenile and childish.
Only my opinion though!
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 12, 2005 13:26:03 GMT -6
Elisabeth:
Yes I have read the doctor's theory and also Carrington's when he tried to reason why Indians could commit such acts on the dead. I'm sure there was a revenge/hate angle to it also, but it was a wide-spread cultural practice followed by most Native Americans.
The Indians also believed you entered the next world in the condition of your death. So if your hands were cut off you could not do anything, your feet cut off, you could not walk, your tongue cut out you could not talk/eat and if your penis is cut off you could not partake of sex.
It was a final insult in addition to who did the damage.
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 12, 2005 13:29:22 GMT -6
I'm sure you're right about rage being a factor. And I'd a feeling I'd read something similar elsewhere; maybe it was from Carrington. (Though it could have been just from someone who'd read Bell.)
It's annoying that Bell doesn't say how he learned the meanings of the "signature" mutilations, though. I can find no mention of a scout going along with his expedition (the Kansas Pacific RR survey party); and he says they left Fort Wallace on July 8th, so Comstock can't have been back yet to instruct him. Bell's still there when Hancock returns to Wallace from Denver, which means Keogh (who's been taught by Comstock) could have told him; but the way Bell puts it -- "it was not till some time afterwards" -- makes it sound as if it's later than that. He'd have been carrying prints around with him, and no doubt showing them wherever he went, so almost any frontiersman could have given him the information, if true ... Imprecise of him, though. Hard to know if he's concocted it himself or not.
[Apologies -- once again I've missed two posts while I was posting. Crzhrs, of course you're right.]
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Post by markland on Dec 12, 2005 13:43:43 GMT -6
"...but the way Bell puts it -- "it was not till some time afterwards" -- makes it sound as if it's later than that."
Elisabeth, Col. Carrington also seems to have learned about the cultural significance of the various slashes at a later time. My impression of his first report about the condition of the dead at the Fetterman battle was that he was horrified and sickened by the destruction to the bodies. There was no understanding of the "why" either explicitly or implicitly in that report.
The presentation he did to the British---darn it, went blank-Academy of Science? is somewhere around the house so I will look for it it and get it uploaded. There should no longer be any copyright worries.
Billy
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Post by markland on Dec 12, 2005 13:49:49 GMT -6
Diane, About Wyllyams, I only know what Dr. William Bell says in his "New Tracks in North America", which is: "He was an Englishman, educated at Eton, and of good family, but while sowing his wild oats, he had made a fatal alliance in London, and gone to grief. Disowned by his family, he had emigrated to America, joined the Army, and was daily expecting promotion out of the ranks." Just a little more on Wyllams. He was enlisted in the U. S. Army on November 21, 1866 by Capt. Mason in Philadelphia, PA for a five year enlistment. He stated that he was from London, England and that his previous occupation had been as a clerk. His physical description is that he had hazel eyes, dark hair and a fair complexion. His height was 5' 5". He is buried over at Ft. Leavenworth, KS, as are most of the 7th's dead 1866-1870. Billy
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