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Post by Tricia on Jul 18, 2005 10:19:41 GMT -6
Generally, one of the most important tools a historian can use in piecing together an incident, a life, or something else before, well, before our times, is what is regarded as primary source material, a document left by someone who was there (be it incident or person)... then.
Given that kind of definition, can Libbie's books be regarded as a true primary source ...? Do they look at her husband through such rose-coloured glasses that they are rendered ineffectual? Or are her reflections of daily life and the people of the times still helpful to the historian and/or buff?
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by weir on Jul 18, 2005 10:41:05 GMT -6
I think Libbie's works are valuable, like the book of his husband "My life on the plains". Of course, things written have to be corroborated, but it gives many good things : reasons of the growing Custer's myth, a personal story of George-Elizabeth relationship, stories from behind the history...
Remember that another "victorian" author Cpt Whittaker is the reason of the Reno's Court of Inquiry, which is very important today to understand the battle. At the time in 1879, Whittaker denunced Benteen's and Reno's statements of LBH that have been proven false since.
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Post by elisabeth on Jul 19, 2005 4:31:54 GMT -6
Oh, yes, I think they're FABULOUS primary sources -- as long as we take them with several tons of salt!
Someone once said that the best approach to finding out the truth about anything is to start with the question: 'Why is this man lying to me?'
It's a question one has to ask constantly in the Custer context, as we know ... and not least with the books of both Custers. My feeling is that Libbie was a brilliant woman, doing a superb PR job; reading between and behind the lines of her books is half the fun. Custer was a bit less skilful, with a tendency to give himself away unwittingly -- as in his lengthy, sunnily unconcerned description of the colouring-the-horses episode, which every one of his officers considered to be pure insanity. He reveals a lot of himself with things like that. And with his dazzlingly untruthful justification of his trek to Libbie in '67, which Libbie loyally repeats, as she has to, but which appears nowhere in his court-martial defence. Fascinating.
And Libbie's great on the stuff where she has no reason to lie, such as the minutiae of daily life. Plus the personality she projects -- gallant little woman, but with humour -- goes a long way to explaining how she held everyone (except Benteen, of course) in thrall. Sheridan's near-worship of the golden couple; all that post-LBH evidence that no-one would give 'while Mrs Custer yet lives'; her ability to twist people like General Miles round her little finger ... Clever, clever lady.
West, you're right, Whittaker's essential reading too, as Libbie's mouthpiece. She'd grasped the concept of 'megaphone diplomacy' a good century before the phrase was invented!
Fortunately, it seems as if everyone in the 19th century was scribbling away constantly, so there are loads of other sources: other army wives' diaries and letters, Barnitz, Isaac Coates, Dr. Bell, the various embedded reporters (Davis, Stanley, Keim) with various expeditions, and so on. Infinite amounts of stuff, fascinating in itself, and useful for testing the Custer versions of events. The more evidence, the better, is my personal view ...
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 19, 2005 13:23:20 GMT -6
Of course her books give valuable insight to Army life and conditions out West. As for her seeing her husband through rose-colored glasses there can be no doubt. So, as someone already said, we need to take what she has to say with a grain of salt.
I think Libbie was a strong person and suffered much with the death of her husband, several relatives, and friends at the LBH.
One interesting note: Libbie lived until 1933. Amazing! There must be people somewhere who may have known her and are still living. Any one know of someone?
Also . . . I saw a short film clip of her on a PBS documentary (Killing Custer) We are not talking about ancient history here!
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Post by weir on Jul 22, 2005 8:46:40 GMT -6
Yes that's what is fascinating in the Old West. When you learn that Arapaho warrior Left Hand who fought at Washita and LBH played an Indian in a 1920s movie ("the covered wagon") you just realize the Old West was in the middle of the contemporary era and the old modern era. The Old West seems so far from WWI but is so close in fact...
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Post by elisabeth on Jul 22, 2005 9:08:39 GMT -6
And that Charles Windolph, last survivor from the 7th Cav participants, didn't die until 1950!!! His daughter -- an old lady, but very lucid -- was interviewed for some comparatively recent documentary. ('Last Stand at Little Big Horn'? I think that was the one.) Astonishing.
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Post by Tricia on Jul 22, 2005 12:52:42 GMT -6
One thing I have found rather odd, and granted, it might have been a normal literary device of the period, is how Libbie removes herself almost from her narrative of Custer. Was that an attempt to gain more followers by giving them a look that seems more strictly biographical, rather than emotional? Granted, I have noticed that there is a difference in narrative styles btw. the last (written) of the "plains" books, "Tenting on the Plains," and say, "Boots and Saddles." To me, Libbie's earlier writings are a bit more playful when it comes to her husband.
The author of "A Wounded Thing Must Hide" mentions how Libbie lived long enough to see the rise of fascism in Europe. That's relatively recent history! You wonder what the sainted husband woulda thunk .... where's Harry Turtledove when you need him?
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jul 22, 2005 13:11:29 GMT -6
And that Charles Windolph, last survivor from the 7th Cav participants, didn't die until 1950!!! His daughter -- an old lady, but very lucid -- was interviewed for some comparatively recent documentary. ('Last Stand at Little Big Horn'? I think that was the one.) Astonishing. And those of us who attended the 125th anniversary events saw Minnie Mechlin, daughter of H Co. Blacksmith Henry Mechlin. Far as I know she is still living. Also the Newsletter had a piece a while ago of an elderly woman in the Chicago area whose father served in the 7th before the LBH! Finally, just recently I believe the last Civil War widow died. This was a woman whose HUSBAND, not father, served with the Confederacy. Granted, it was a May-December marriage during the Depression when he was in his eighties and she a young woman in her twenties; she married him to get is veteran's pension that the State of Alabama was paying him. Another interesting thing is that Wyatt Earp directed movies in the 1920s. If anyone knew what the west was really like and could put it in movies, it would've been him. No, the Old West isn't really that old when you think about it. It just seems so on account of all the technological advancements in the last century.
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jul 22, 2005 13:14:23 GMT -6
sorry folks, looks like I haven't figured out the quote thing yet. I clicked the quote icon and it quoted my post as well. What gives?
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 22, 2005 13:42:34 GMT -6
I believe the last warrior (Dewey Beard) who fought at the LBH died in 1955! And the last Indian who witnessed the battle died in 1960! Ancient history . . . no way!
And there are elderly Indians alive who had a parent and/or relatives at the LBH, knew them and heard all the stories.
Charles Windolph's daughter (just died not to long ago) appeared in a PBS documentary (Killing Custer/Last stand at the LBH) She said: "Custer was for Custer". Apparently dad told her stories that were not flattering to GAC!
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Post by weir on Jul 22, 2005 15:34:00 GMT -6
Charles Windolph's daughter (just died not to long ago) appeared in a PBS documentary (Killing Custer/Last stand at the LBH) She said: "Custer was for Custer". Apparently dad told her stories that were not flattering to GAC! I believe that Windolph's daugther wanted to have a sentence on TV... Look real sentences of her Dad, it will be different... Look at Joe Medicine Crow's histories in "Killing Custer"'s documentary....!! The one with Crows scouts abandonning their clothes to join their "free comrades" sioux and cheyennes is really hilarious...!! I'm not sure one quote is believable in this TV show...
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Post by Tricia on Jul 22, 2005 19:45:02 GMT -6
West--
I'd truly hate to learn what you think of Barnitz's writings ... you certainly out Libbie-Libbie.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by weir on Jul 23, 2005 4:18:23 GMT -6
During his duty Barnitz was arrested more than once by Custer.
I have never read bad comments of Custer about his subordinates or commanders, including bad soldiers like Reno, Benteen or Barnitz.
What do you want me to say ? Custer was the best ? Hell, he truly was. Libbie's heroic vision is just a reflection of what a majority of people think about Custer at the time.
Custer's charisma is still working today. Not by chance, not by advertisement. By deserved bravery.
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