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Post by weir on Mar 2, 2005 12:00:45 GMT -6
I want to know which are the evidences of Custer scouting the North Ford. I mean archeological evidences, or others...?
I know that Godfrey is the first to have thought of Custer having the intention to capture civilians, although many wrote that Martini reported that Custer said that.
Martini didn't say that. According to his accounts, Custer said "We will charge and capture the village".
No mention of the civilians. So where are the evidences ?
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Post by shatonska on Mar 2, 2005 14:24:56 GMT -6
i think no shure evidence two things i can say , i read that the body of a doctor was found near the ford and wolf thoot story seems to put custer near the ford , but this is not even a first person story !
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Post by Tricia on Mar 2, 2005 17:27:45 GMT -6
Capt. Weir--
The expert of the moment on Ford D seems to be Mike Donahue, who is a summer ranger at Little Bighorn, and has a book coming out this summer, I believe. I have heard him talk about the Ford D theory at great length--and the bulk of his evidence comes from cartridges isssued to the Seventh found along the banks of the Little Bighorn River. He claims that it was F company headed that way, was repelled, on what is now the west side of I-90, and has timed it--and that this motion fits the timeline normally associated with the last stand. Mark Kellogg's body was found near the river, and I believe Bob Snelson ("Death of a Myth") uses him as "evidence" towards that movement north, though his theory follows the river, whereas Donahue's traces F's movements along Custer Ridge, beyond what is State Route 212, with a turn to the west. I think the usual reason given for the ride to Ford D is that of a last ditch effort for Custer's battalion to garner hostages. From there, I believe, F troop fell back to Cemetery Ridge and further back to Last Stand Hill.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Rice Leyton McLean
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Post by shatonska on Mar 3, 2005 8:10:51 GMT -6
Capt. Weir-- The expert of the moment on Ford D seems to be Mike Donahue, who is a summer ranger at Little Bighorn, and has a book coming out this summer, I believe. I have heard him talk about the Ford D theory at great length--and the bulk of his evidence comes from cartridges isssued to the Seventh found along the banks of the Little Bighorn River. He claims that it was F company headed that way, was repelled, on what is now the west side of I-90, and has timed it--and that this motion fits the timeline normally associated with the last stand. Mark Kellogg's body was found near the river, and I believe Bob Snelson ("Death of a Myth") uses him as "evidence" towards that movement north, though his theory follows the river, whereas Donahue's traces F's movements along Custer Ridge, beyond what is State Route 212, with a turn to the west. I think the usual reason given for the ride to Ford D is that of a last ditch effort for Custer's battalion to garner hostages. From there, I believe, F troop fell back to Cemetery Ridge and further back to Last Stand Hill. Hope this helps. Regards, Rice Leyton McLean i agree , but i think that custer went there to scout while waiting for benteen , his next move was north where he could find hostages and help from gibbon !
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Post by weir on Mar 3, 2005 8:38:46 GMT -6
Thank you for your help and your answers.
I found a disturbing testimony about Kellogg's death.
Gibbon claimed that he later found a body in the Deep Ravine, a civilian body that he couldn't identify. For identification, he took one of his boot and was later said that it was the body of the journalist.
Can Gibbon be confused ?
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Post by Tricia on Mar 3, 2005 9:50:10 GMT -6
i agree , but i think that custer went there to scout while waiting for benteen , his next move was north where he could find hostages and help from gibbon ! Where was Custer scouting? Towards Ford D? I don't think it's likely that he would be waiting for Gibbon--as there was no set rendezvous date for the meetup. Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by custerstillstands on Mar 5, 2005 4:45:34 GMT -6
No, there was a rendez-vous.
Terry's staff wrote on June 21th : "The march will be quick, because we said to Custer that we'll be at Little Big Horn on June 26th in the morning."
Custe could have tought that Terry would be in the valley, but Terry's march was awful and he was late.
A testimony of a scout named Goes Ahead said : "Custer went near the river and send one man with a paper to the other soldiers in the North"
Maybe Custer sent a message to Terry, as Chiaventone said in his novel...
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Post by shatonska on Mar 5, 2005 8:17:47 GMT -6
Where was Custer scouting? Towards Ford D? I don't think it's likely that he would be waiting for Gibbon--as there was no set rendezvous date for the meetup. Regards, Leyton McLean remember that indians family where moving north gibbons had to arrive from the north , both from the other side of the river medicine tail was too south in this moment , so he had to find another place to cross the river , so while placing the big part of his men on the ridge waiting for benteen he scouted north to find the place of the next move , he was still on the offence because if he believed to be in great danger he could still come back towards benteen and others ! the fact that he sent someone to advise gibbons is not clear but he knew that gibbons was near , fantery was only a few hours distance ride
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Post by Rabble1 on Mar 7, 2005 1:40:06 GMT -6
Try reading "A good walk around the Boundary" for archeological details by Doug Scott. Also try reading Terry's Diary which states of Gibbon...."the expectation that it (Gibbon's Column) would arrive at the last named point (confluence of LB and LBH rivers) by the 26th" - still 12 miles away from the Battlefield. Custer was NOT given any specific date other than in the written orders - "expiration of time for which your troops are rationed"
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Post by Rabble1 on Mar 7, 2005 1:48:30 GMT -6
I should have said confluence of LBH and BH rivers.
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Post by weir on Mar 7, 2005 11:32:26 GMT -6
"the expectation that it (Gibbon's Column) would arrive at the last named point (confluence of LB and LBH rivers) by the 26th" - still 12 miles away from the Battlefield. Custer was NOT given any specific date other than in the written orders - "expiration of time for which your troops are rationed"
Terry is lying ! His aid said the opposite, and lieutnant Bradley said also that Terry was expected to be on June 26th !!!
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Post by bigpond on Mar 7, 2005 16:16:51 GMT -6
If I can remember rightly,Heredeen and some scouts[probrbly Crow] where to take a order from GAC to Terry on his werabouts,stating his position.But Custer waived this aside. Gibbon who had ascended Tullocks was expecting Herendeen,as were the orders to Custer.
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Post by Tricia on Mar 7, 2005 21:41:12 GMT -6
No, there was a rendez-vous. Terry's staff wrote on June 21th : "The march will be quick, because we said to Custer that we'll be at Little Big Horn on June 26th in the morning." Custe could have tought that Terry would be in the valley, but Terry's march was awful and he was late. A testimony of a scout named Goes Ahead said : "Custer went near the river and send one man with a paper to the other soldiers in the North" Maybe Custer sent a message to Terry, as Chiaventone said in his novel... So we're going to believe Chiaventone? Why then did Custer take rations for fifteen days, and even then, joked to the officers that they would be eating 'horse meat' before their scout was over? Regards,
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Post by custerstillstands on Mar 8, 2005 8:38:11 GMT -6
Terry cancelled Gibbon's scout because the Montana Column was too late to be at Custer's side on June 26th.
The evidence are from lieutnant Bradley and Terry's aide who wrote the orders for Custer. The testimonies are without a doubt telling that Custer expected Gibbon to be in the valley, not far, on June 26th.
It didn't take this information from Chaventone's book, but from Bradley testimony and Terry's aide testimony. But there is no doubt that terry wanted Custer to attack at once if he found the Indians first and thought that they would scattered. Bradely's testimony and other testimonies of officers of 1876 told this : if Custer located the Indians, he would attack on June 26th with the support of Gibbon and Terry. If he knew that the Indians would fly away, or if he found them in an other location that in the Little Big Horn valley (like Tullock's creek), he had to attack them at once.
Remember that Godfrey said that Custer let his scouts going on the tops of the hills to see the entire valley of Tullocks Creek. Custer obeyed to Terry, but there were not steps of Indians in Tullocks Creek. Then he turn to the valley of the Little Big Horn.
Custer could have wanted to contact Gibbon after he knew the treason of Reno and Benteen. We know that some soldiers were killed a lot of miles from Custer Battlefield, like Harrington and another soldier of company C. Perhaps these people were carrying oral orders or written orders that have never been found. But it is an theory. You cannot deny it, except if you have the power to talk with Custer in heaven.
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Post by twomoons on Apr 30, 2005 11:23:07 GMT -6
A couple of points here were made.
First: Custerstillstands ""A testimony of a scout named Goes Ahead said : "Custer went near the river and send one man with a paper to the other soldiers in the North""
Was this "paper" ever discovered", by that I mean did those papers ever reach Terry or Gibbon? If not who could have been the courier, and where did he go, or end up?
2nd: bigpond ""If I can remember rightly,Heredeen and some scouts[probrbly Crow] where to take a order from GAC to Terry on his werabouts,stating his position.But Custer waived this aside. Gibbon who had ascended Tullocks was expecting Herendeen,as were the orders to Custer.""
In going along with my first question, was it Herendeen who was conveying those papers to Terry? Herendeen after all was supposed to have been used long before Custer chose to send him. If indeed this was what Custer was trying to do, ie. send Herendeen with the papers to advise Terry, what happened?
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