American Horse/Iron Plume/Slim Buttes

[clw]

I'm trying to sort out my own confusion about American Horse/Iron Plume/Slim Buttes and would greatly appreciate help from our Lakota historians. So far I've found.......

1. Frank Grouard started the whole confusion by identifying Iron Plume as American Horse at the Slim Buttes battle.

2. The leader of the band attacked at Slim Buttes was Iron Plume.

3. Then in rereading what's been posted here I found this statement from Dietmar........."Neither he nor the other American Horse were at Slim Buttes".

Could someone please explain to me who's who? Dietmar, who was at Slim Buttes?? Kingsley says in Crazy Horse it was Iron Plume.

[jinlian]

Hi clw,

I couldn't find the thread you're referring to, I'll try to summarize anyway:

1. Frank Grouard incorrectly identified the Minneconjou warrior called Iron Plume as American Horse. This was the man killed at Slim Buttes.

2. In that period, there were two prominent Oglala leaders called American Horse. One was from the family of Chief Smoke, being a brother of Woman's Dress, while the second - and more famous one - was son of Sitting Bear and a famous orator and diplomat (was also chosen as shirtwearer together with Crazy Horse, Young Man Afraid and Sword )

I think it was American Horse himself (in Ricker's interview) to state that "There was no American Horse at Slim Buttes"

HTH,

Jin

[clw]

Thanks Jinlian. After carefully rereading page one of the American Horse thread (where I found Dietmar's comment) I see that he is referring to a third American Horse, hence my confusion. Ephraim lays it all out quite nicely earlier on the page.

Gordie, my head hurts too. And I wish they'd change that darn NPS marker at Slim Buttes! I'm gonna write somebody in the govmint.

[crzhrs]

I might be mistaken, but wasn't Grouard the one with Crook who thought the March 1876 attack on the Sioux village was Crazy Horse's village? Instead it turned out to be He Dog's.

If so Grouard may not have been the most reliable of scouts . . . we know he twisted CH's words about killing whites rather than scouting with them to go after the Nez Perce.

[harpskiddie]

crzhrs:

The camp attacked by Reynolds in March 1876 was a Cheyenne camp of about forty lodges with perhaps a few visiting Lakotas. The Cheyenne headman was, if I remember correctly, Old Bear; but I would have to check my notes to be sure.

Sadee:

If it's hard for the people on this board to figure it all out, with the resources and information now available, imagine what it must have been like for whoever was responsible for what went on the NPS marker!! I'm sure that they probably consulted only the army records, or asked somebody in the military. Bourke or Mills, or Crook maybe - they left written accounts - or even a newspaper.

Gordie
MC

[clw]

Yes, that was Grouard who was not only wrong about Crazy Horse, but it seems couldn't tell Lakota from Cheyenne either.

As to Slim Buttes, Capt. Anson Mills told Camp in a 1914 interview.........

"I had not much confidence in Grouard as a fighting man, and so did not heed his fear that we would find a village too large for us. He had a splendid knowledge of the country, and knew the ways of the Indian, and was, undoubtedly the best guide we could have found for such knowledge as that, but in many ways he was not to be relied upon. I always regarded him as a coward and a big liar."

Yeah Gordie, but still........ you know how fussy I get. ;D

[harpskiddie]

Sadee:

I agree that it should be changed. I was sort of defending the poor guys who had to design it and put it up. At least it seems to be in about the right place, from your terrific pictures and description. Maybe some sort of concerted effort by the people could set things right.

Gordie
MC

PS You might direct those who read these posts to the thread where you posted those pics.

[clw]

Well OK. It's on the Indian Wars board.

Ya know, I've been kicking myself for the last week that we didn't go down in that coulee where the battle took place. The monument is the first thing you see outside of Reva and, well, I got a little overwhelmed just being there and was still getting the lay of the land so the moment passed. It's a big area and we had lots to see.

I'm learning that it's easy to get hit with sensory overload when you're standing on these battlefields.

[brock]

Actually there is another marker about one mile south of Hwy 20 and one mile west of highway 79. It is on George Lermeny's property impossible to get to without getting his permission. It seems at some point long ago highway 79 was a mile west of where it is today...at least at this point. It really is no more accurate than the one at the entrance of the state park but it is purportedly closer to the spot where Iron Plume was killed. George does not hear well as he is in about his 80s. He did tell me there was a ton of undischarged ammo near where his barn is now built and he found it by mistake when he cleared the land there and lit a bonfire. He said he had to duck for cover because of all the bullets flying. His barn is near his house and 1/2 mile north of Hwy 20 at the 'T' where 20 meets Hwy 79. Slim Buttes was known as the winter campground to many of the Lakota because if they camped on the east side of the butte area they could find many areas that shielded their tipis from the north winds, not to mention the south and west. Also the tall buttes allowed them to see for miles and could pick up reflections or signals from places like Rabbit Butte, Sheep and Piney Mtns, etc. Why their scouts were 'asleep' the day Mills rode in is something I plan on getting into after I get my current doc out.

[harpskiddie]

Sadee:

I know exactly what you mean. I happened upon the Fetterman Monument by accident one morning, while out checking fences. I had never heard of the Fetterman Fight. Talk about shock and awe!!

Gordie
MC

[charlie]

Hey Guys, at regard American Horse the Elder (aka Iron Plume) go here: www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/siouan/oglalachiefs.htm
There is a brief bio and a photo of him (i hope is really him....)

[grahamew]

If this is the photo, it's Little Wound.
www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/siouan/oglalahist.htm

[charlie]

Sorry, my mistake! Go here:http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h3788.html
or here: www.u-s-history.com/pages/h3951.html

[jinlian]

Still "the other" American Horse, am afraid... (compare the various pictures posted in the "American Horse" thread)

As far as I know, there are no pictures of Iron Plume. Anybody can confirm/deny this?

[clw]

brock said:

Actually there is another marker about one mile south of Hwy 20 and one mile west of highway 79. ...............

Also the tall buttes allowed them to see for miles and could pick up reflections or signals from places like Rabbit Butte, Sheep and Piney Mtns, etc.

In checking the map, I see this is the general area that was pointed out to me as Iron Plume's camp. We don't need no stinkin' markers!

I also heard some stories about the the communication value of Rabbit Butte; Rattlesnake Butte and Thunder Butte too. Modern day equivalent of cell towers.

Looking forward to the next CD, Brock. BTW, got to spend an afternoon with Floyd. Had a wonderful visit!