Wooden Leg

[pjsolla]

dogsoldier, Crzhrs, et al:

Hey, no problem at this end. I don't take offense so easy at discussions on here. And I see where I misinterpreted what DS said. Again, not a problem. We are on here to discuss.

Is what this gal said true? How I wish I knew. She seemed very articualte, quite knowledgable of WL and his family. I only regret she did not contact me after that flight, and worse, that I did not press for a contact number for her.

My opinion was both she and WL's family may have had something of value. Maybe I wanted to believe that.

I can honestly say, from my heart, that if she had nothing, she would never have even opened up the conversation.

PJS

[crzhrs]

I have only read bits and pieces of Wooden Leg's story used as references in other books. I'll see if I can get it from my local library.

[dogsoldier]

bhist said:

All one has to do is read the reactions to the possibility of new Indian accounts to easily understand why Indians will not share stories like these with white men. People are questioning their accounts before the contents are known.

With all due respect, the Cheyennes were not revealing this supposed bombshell information long before I came along on this message board. Please show me other negative reactions to this supposed revelation, by well-known white historians in well-known publications that convinced the Cheyennes to keep this information private. Bottom line -- regardless of my views, or anyone elses more in the public eye, this particular Cheyenne family was going to do what they wanted. It's not like they were all ready to present the information and read something derogatory and changed their minds. If they had something to say, something that really added to our knowledge, they wouldn't hold back. It's more than a century later, GET OVER YOURSELF. You got something, give it. It's like not being allowed to dig up bones found on Indian lands even when the bones are not proven to be Indians. And even if they were, what's the point in not studying ancient bones. It helps us learn where we came from. And for the record, I disagree with the NPS about not digging up [carefully] Custer battlefield, including the ravines, to get to the bottom, once and for all, of missing bodies, etc. That's my two cents, or more like a quarter in this instance.

[crzhrs]

DG:

This is not a dig against you . . .

I don't think poster was talking specifically about you . . . but any time "new" Indian information is supposedly out there the first thing some say is it can't be trusted, oral history is not accurate, why wait till now? etc.

I guess one has to be in the shoes, or moccasins in this case, of someone else to know what it must have been like to go what they did, and then ridiculed for not being forthright.

[dogsoldier]

I don't think that all oral history can't be trusted. I'd love to hear what they have to say. But the unwarranted mystery that surrounds the information is downright unnecessary. Withholding history just doesn't cut it with me, and it is my opinion that if they really had something important to say, they'd say it. I have to go out for a while. I will pick this thread up later, if need be.

[markland]

Well, if the biography of Mackenzie I am reading is correct about Wooden Leg being part of Dull Knife's band and away from the village when Mackenzie made his attack, whatever it is has to be some type of oral history, perhaps written down later, as Mackenzie burned practically everything in the village.

Speaking of which, whatever did happen to the artifacts from Custer's command that Mackenzie's forces found in the village?

Best of wishes,

Billy

[shatonska]

markland said:

Well, if the biography of Mackenzie I am reading is correct about Wooden Leg being part of Dull Knife's band and away from the village when Mackenzie made his attack, whatever it is has to be some type of oral history, perhaps written down later, as Mackenzie burned practically everything in the village.

Speaking of which, whatever did happen to the artifacts from Custer's command that Mackenzie's forces found in the village?

Best of wishes,

Billy

WL became an indian judge later , maybe he learned to write too , i don't recall well if he was away from the village (i think yes) , wooden leg book is written as a single person but the story is mixed with recollections of other cheyennes when WL was not present in a certain event or to be more accurate
some accounts on the Custer fight were later changed ( soldiers suicide ) by WL, i'm sure they had something to hide , indian memory is well known , cheyennes knew Custer , they probably knew who killed him

[Jim]

ALL of you have to realize that not much has changed in 130 years in Montana, INCLUDING the feelings of resident Whites towards the Indians, AND the Indian feelings towards the resident Whites. It is sad, but every year I'm up there (In rural Eastern Montana), I feel like I'm going through a "Time-Warp" back to the 70's. NO, not the 1970's, but the 1870's!?!?

I'm sure their (Indians) concern is that it is time to release some info. from their oral histories that need to be corrected in our HISTORIES!

[crzhrs]

I was in South Dakota in 1989 on my way to Pine Ridge. I stopped somway for gas and asked was this the right way to Pine Ridge. I was asked: "Why do you want to go see a bunch of savages."

So, yes, time has not changed the feelings or animosity . . . and one can see why many Indians are reluctant to reveal much to outsiders. I'm sure there are many Indian who don't think much of whites but I did meet some Oglala and Brule Sioux on Pine Ridge and they were very courteous to me and even invited me to their homes. One of the best days of my life!

[pjsolla]

I have been reading from many of you about the "prejudicial" comments that are made concerning the Native Americans. It is sad.

But alas, it goes from coast to coast in all shapes and forms. Maybe more of the bigots are old diehards, maybe not. I see too many young people with prejudice and hatred burned into their eyes!!!

My sister lives in Georgia. It never ceases to amaze me the hostility that is shown towards Northerners by many of the Southerners. I thought the war ended years ago. Don't get me wrong, we've met some great people when visiting her, but there is that group of diehards that does not let go. They make problems for everybody. And yes, we have been confronted with it. What a shame.

And it's not just the south, try the midwest, southwest, northern midwest, Northeast, etc. People get very territorial, and worse, develop "hatred" of other Americans in their own minds.

I watched Drew Carey a few years ago on a talk show. He had taken his car & lady friend of his, and elected to travel the northern US thru Montana, Dakotas, etc. for a few months. He said, "you think Californians and New Yorkers are rude and hateful? Try motoring thru the northern US. It got so bad we couldn't get food service in some areas."

So, when I read of the "hostilities" between whites and Indians, while I don't accept it, I understand it.

Are we ever gonna learn? This hatred in all areas of this great USA just undermines our moral fiber. Whites hate blacks, blacks hate whites, Americans hate mid easterners, Hispanics hate blacks, Southerners despise Northerners, and it goes on and on and on.

I would hope this next generation has learned something from all the mistakes of past generations.

Simply put, these prejudicial attitudes must be eradicated from our society forever. A tall order, but we have to do it. Our survival as a people depends on it!

PJS

[Diane Merkel]

PJS, I think you just hijacked your own thread.

In an attempt to be a Southern lady, I am biting my tongue (restraining my fingers) regarding your comments about visiting Georgia. Southerners live with the reverse situation every day of our lives. Lack of respect breeds contempt.

I think the point was made earlier: You can't possibly understand someone until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

[pjsolla]

Diane:
Sorry if you feel offended. That was not my intent.
I was simply stating what happened to us when we visited there. I never meant it as an indictment of the entire state. I mentioned not only the south, but all across the country. It's a problem we have, period.

Don't read into something that I said. I simply stated that we, unfortunately, have a prejudice problem across the country. Why? Maybe as you say, lack of respect breeds contempt.

I am sorry if the post insulted you in any way. That was never the intent. I was simply stating, again, what happened.

And that also is part of the problem. Everybody feels, "well, they have a problem in (wherever), but we don't have a problem here.

I've witnessed enough head bashing of illegal immigrants to understand that this problem of prejudice, across the country, is more than superficial.

And let me tell you, the verbal insults we encountered with my wife and mom in the car were threatening, to say the least. My mom was 78 at the time and it really upset her. What the hell is wrong with people?? It happened. It shouldn't have.

PJS

[pjsolla]

Did I hijack my own thread? In the face of all the comments about the hatred between whites and Indians, I felt it necessary to respond.

However, lets get back to Wooden Leg and the possibility of sequestered information by his family. My encounter happened four years ago. Is it possible the information that gal was talking about is still being surpressed?

PJS

[dogsoldier]

I'm sure, like many of you have said, that there is still prejudice in the United States. Heck, I've experienced it, especially growing up in a neighborhood whose family was of a different religious heritage from everyone else. It was a matter of learning karate or how to run. Well, my parents never sent me for karate lessons. But I won all the footraces. (In my neighborhood, it was accept Jesus or run for your life. I not only ran from their Jesus, I ran from religion.)

As for Wooden Leg having more information about the battle that he didn't share, I just have my sincere doubts that it is anything of value or that we don't already know. Perhaps it has to do with tortures that he didn't want to tell about. But I can't imagine what else he would want to keep private. Besides it is highly unlikely that Wooden Leg was the only one to know this information and he couldn't keep everyone else silent. So we might already know this private information anyway.

I think it is just horrible that anyone, be it a government, family or individual, etc. would want to withhold historical information of importance or prevent its coming to light (such as in digging up the past). But in this case, I just find it extremely implausible that there is anything stunning to divulge. Thomas Marquis appears to have had a wonderful relationship with the warriors. Unless he, too, knew this information and promised not to write about it. But I find that highly implausible, too.

What happened to the Native Americans in this country is downright disgusting. On the one hand, it had to happen. They had to lose the land, there was no other way. On the other hand, so called civilization didn't exactly go about it in the best way. Of course, that's easy for me to say, far removed in time from the actual events. There are no easy answers to this problem. But long before the Europenas ever came to this land, the native tribes were fighting and displacing each other. The Sioux, especially, know this. The Cheyenne, too. Their native homeland was, in truth, only occupied by themselves since perhaps the last half of the 1700s. Likely, not much more than 100 years at the time of the Battle of the Little Bighorn. They have stories of migrating from the Great Lakes region.

So yes, they were wronged, but they are just as guilty. So again, if you've got this important historical information, let's have it. If it is truly important it is a crime against history to keep it private. With all the time that has elapsed, its integrity has likely been compromised already, unless it was truly written down (if not by Wooden Leg, then someone else).

[pjsolla]

Dog Soldier:

You feel that it is wrong for anyone, government, individuals, etc. to withold historical information. But, it happens. All the time. And the way the Native
American is still perceived, I can see them sequestering material if they have it.

I can't be sure what, if any, new material may be held by the family of Wooden Leg. However, we will never know until those in possession of it, come forward.

I received an email just the other day. The individual at the other end said "they" were Native American and that any materials that might be held by WL's family would never be released for fear of further ridicule by the whites. In reading the email, I felt they were NOT affiliated with WL's family, but making a statement for Native Americans at large.

They said they were directed to the LBHA site by "mutual" friends who told them of the WL content.

I wrote back and asked them how they got my email address and if they knew for sure if the WL family had further info regarding the battle. I never received a response back. I hate mysterys like this. If your gonna write me, at least respond to my inquiry.

I essentially just have to wonder what other material may exist. To get what I call, an anonymous email, regarding the subject matter, only makes me wonder even more.

And it may be so. Maybe the Native Americans are VERY reluctant to release any reamaining material they may have. Can you picture the volcano that would erupt if further material indicated how Custer died, how troopers might have been tortured (as someone mentioned in a previous post), and a host of other unknowns.

And maybe, just maybe, a Native American will step up to the plate and say, "here, here is the remaining oral testimony that was written down concering what happend at the LBH". Yeah, probably wishful thinking.

PJS