Minneconjou/Sans Arc Bands at LBH?

[Dietmar]

Hi Charlie,

how is spring in Italia?

There were two Lone Horn/One Horns. The first was the one you mentioned as being born in the 18th century and painted by Catlin. He was killed by a buffalo in 1834. His younger brother, who took his name and died in 1875, is the one in the photographs.

Dietmar

[kingsleybray]

Just expanding on Dietmar's observation: The One Horn (Hewanzhicha, means literally something like Only One Horn, hence the alternative Lone Horn, sometimes rendered Only One Horn, or in trader French La Corne Seule) painted by Catlin in 1832 was described by the painter as 'in the prime of life'. The birth date given by Josephine Waggoner, 1787 (based on winter counts), is plausible. One Horn was killed after a fit of suicidal grief when he attacked a buffalo bull armed only with a knife - according to Dewey Beard, near Bear Butte in July 1835.

The younger man, commonly known in the sources as Lone Horn (same Lakota name, of course), was born in 1814-15 by his own statement - he stated in the 1868 treaty councils that he was then 53 years old. He died during the winter of 1875-76 at his village on the Cheyenne River.

The exact relationship between the two men is still ambiguous. Some modern Lakotas, including family descendants, have them as brothers, both sons of the chief Black Bull met by Lewis & Clark in 1804 (nb. a Brule chief). However, contemporary winter counts embodying data collected from Lakota informants in the 1860s and 70s state that Lone Horn (the younger of the two men) was the son of Red Fish, a prominent Miniconjou chief. Red Fish is noted as a chief beginning in the later 1830s, indicating his succession from One Horn. He was still alive in the winter of 1867-68, but probably died soon after that date. Lone Horn, his putative son, had already succeeded him as chief of the Wakpokinyan band of Miniconjou - possibly in 1853 when a new cohort of Miniconjou band chiefs was seated.

Descendants on the Pine Ridge Reservation by the way have confirmed to me that Lone Horn was the son of Red Fish. I wonder if One Horn I and Red Fish were 'brothers', both considered as 'sons' of Black Bull? Recently discovered testimony indicates that Big Foot (aka Spotted Elk, born ca. 1826) was the biological son of One Horn I, and was adopted after the death of his father by Lone Horn II. The latter was a young married man by the mid 1830s, and it would be natural for the orphan to be reared by a close kinsman. Note that in Euro-American terms Big Foot would be Lone Horn's nephew - in Lakota terms the two men were brothers. Raised as a younger member of the Lone Horn household, Big Foot came to be considered with the family's children, hence the frequent references to Big Foot and Touch the Clouds (Lone Horn's eldest surviving son and successor) as brothers.

hope this helps

Kingsley

[charlie]

Kingsley: your competence is simply monstruous! You have definitively make clearly in my head!
Dietmar: here the spring is moderate, 20° in average. It's perfect. Do you know that German People love the Italian sea? In Liguria, a region near my residence, there is a town called Diano Marina that is full of German tourists. Do you know this place?

[clw]

Recently discovered testimony indicates that Big Foot (aka Spotted Elk, born ca. 1826) was the biological son of One Horn I, and was adopted after the death of his father by Lone Horn II. The latter was a young married man by the mid 1830s, and it would be natural for the orphan to be reared by a close kinsman. Note that in Euro-American terms Big Foot would be Lone Horn's nephew - in Lakota terms the two men were brothers. Raised as a younger member of the Lone Horn household, Big Foot came to be considered with the family's children, hence the frequent references to Big Foot and Touch the Clouds (Lone Horn's eldest surviving son and successor) as brothers.

Kingsley ~ I've heard similar testimony, perhaps from the same source. It's led me to the same conclusion.

[Dietmar]

Kingsley,

great information. I wonder about if Red Fish and One Horn I were brothers, let´s say more or less about one age, and Lone Horn II and Big Foot were sons of these two, then could it be that Lone Horn II adopted Big Foot as a son? The latter must be a cousin than, not a nephew, only about 11 years younger than Lone Horn II.


Hey Charlie,

do I know that Germans love the Italian Sea? You bet. I don´t know Diano Marina, but we were on Elba several times. I wish I would be there now or next summer, but you know… with two little kids it´s expensive. And a long drive.
Yes, most Germans I know love Italy and Italians… as long they don´t have to play soccer against them ;D.

[grahamew]

What relation, if any, was this Red Fish to the one Barry photographed?

[charlie]

This is that i have understood: BIG FOOT (born 1826) and TOUCH THE CLOUDS (born 1837) are not brothers but (probably) cousins. The first is son of Lone Horn I° and belonged to "Inyan Ha Oin" band. The second is son of Lone Horn II° (cousin of Lone Horn I°?) and belonged to "Wakpokinyan" band. Then, they were related but not belonged to same band. I'm right?
Dietmar: Elba is a very nice place and... yes, Italian soccers are very glad when they play against Germans: the victory is sure!!!

[kingsleybray]

Grahame,

The Red Fish photographed by Barry was a Upper Yanktonai chief, Cuthead (Pabaksa) band. There is some info' about him in the Col. A. B. Welch papers at Standing Rock. Welch notes his death in 1928 and the information from his daughter Eva Little Chief (I think her photo' appears in one of Jim Howard's booklets on the Dakota) that his boyhood name was Mahpiya Howaste (Good Voice Cloud), "but when he was made Chief his name was changed to Red Fish". His father was All Over Black, a Yanktonai chief in the 1860s-70s period.

However-r-r, another Welch paper says that this Red Fish was "a son of the Red Fish who was an Oglala chief in 1849 and who lost his influence and position on account of the failure of his war party against the Crows". This refers to an incident recorded by Fr DeSmet, a Lakota defeat by the Crows which resulted in the capture of Red Fish's daughter. Despite the tribal confusion, this story is about the Red Fish, Miniconjou chief and father of Lone Horn. According to one descendant (through a younger son who carried the name Red Fish and settled at Rosebud), one of Red Fish's later wives was an Oglala - maybe connected to the confusion over tribe.

I find it much more likely that the Yanktonai Red Fish was a son of All Over Black. Whether we might posit a hunka relationship to the Miniconjou leader, or some other connection . . . who knows?

Charlie, Josephine Waggoner did write that Big Foot's band was the Inyanhaowin, Shell Earring. This band was actually led by Makes Room and then by his son, Joseph White Bull. In the 1880s it settled downstream from Cherry Creek's junction with the Cheyenne River, a long way from Big Foot's camp near the forks of the Cheyenne. Big Foot's camp surrendered separately from White Bull's outfit after the Great Sioux War. So I find it hard to believe that Big Foot was permanently identified with the Inyanhaowin. Still at the Don'tKnow stage, I'm afraid!

Best

Kingsley

[grahamew]

Thanks.