Crazy Horse Genealogy

[clw]

I too have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and have learned a lot from ephriam and Mr. Bray. To read a book and be able enter into a discussion with it's author is a rare privledge. Wopila.

One of the things that I loved about Mr. Bray's book was his treatment of the time when the bands were coming in to the agencies to settle and the politics (NDN) of the period. I know of no other book that addresses this in such depth and I found it facinating.

In fairness however, let me leave you with this thought.

They also sent a copy of a 1920 interview with Leo Combing, one of Julia Iron Cedar's brothers, in which he carefully explained some of the family's connections with the Crazy Horse family. The interview is transcribed in my 'Notes on the Genealogy of Crazy Horse'. It clearly indicates that Crazy Horse's father (Crazy Horse Sr., or Worm) and Woman's Breast were two different men. Leo I reiterate was born in 1851 and was contemporary with the principals in our story.

Two years before his 1920 interview, (Leo) Combing's younger brother (Peter) Wolf was shot in the back by masked white men in front of his wife and children. The assassins told his wife it was because he was a member of the Crazy Horse family. At the time of the 1920 interview, Combing was the keeper of CH's pipe and bundle. Hardly surprising that he insisted that Waglula and Woman's Breast were two different men and worth considering, I think.

[Dietmar]

Hope you all had a great Christmas.

I took a look at Wikipedia and found that the information there about Crazy Horse seems to be based on the same sources than the DVD is. here is an edit:

"Crazy Horse's father, who was also named Crazy Horse (born 1810) but took the name Worm after passing the name to his son, was Lakota and his mother, Rattling Blanket Woman (born 1814), was Lakota. Rattling Blanket Woman was the daughter of Black Buffalo and White Cow (also known as Iron Cane). Black Buffalo is the one who stopped Lewis and Clark on the Bad River. She was the younger sister of One Horn (born 1794) and Lone Horn (born 1804). She also had an older sister named Good Looking Woman (born 1810) and a younger sister named Looks At It (born 1815), later given the name They Are Afraid of Her. Looks At It had a much bigger build than her two older sisters. She got her second name because she had married a man named Stands Up For Him. They had a child. When the child died of a disease, he tried to take her south away from her family. A fight ensued. She beat him up and thus the name They Are Afraid Of Her was bestowed on her. Rattling Blanket Woman also had another older half-brother named Hump who was born in 1811. Hump's mother was Good Voice Woman and Black Buffalo's second wife. Hump and Waglula became best friends. When Waglula began to court Hump's half sister, he presented three horses to the family head Lone Horn (the older sibling One Horn had died earlier after being gored by a buffalo, making Lone Horn the oldest male and head man of the family. Their father, Black Buffalo, had died in about 1820 near Devil's Tower, or as the Lakota called it Grey Horn Butte, of sickness.). In return for the three horses he hoped he could take Rattling Blanket Woman as his wife as was the custom. But the family's women wanted eight horses, and apparently they had the final say. So Hump volunteered to go on a raiding party with Waglula. They brought back 16 horses, four loaded with meat they had captured from a Crow hunting party and presented it to the family. Thus Rattling Blanket Woman and Waglula became husband and wife. Crazy Horse was born with the name 'In The Wilderness' or 'Among the Trees' (in Lakota the name is phonetically pronounced as Cha-O-Ha) meaning he was one with nature. His nickname was Curly. He had the same light curly hair of his mother. In 1844 Waglula (aka Worm) went on a buffalo hunt. He came across a Lakota village under attack by Crow warriors. He led his small contingent in to rescue the village. Corn who was the head man of the village (the famed painter, George Catlin painted his picture while visiting the tribe in 1832 entitled "Corn, Minicouju Warrior") had lost his wife in the raid. In gratitude he gave Waglula his two eldest daughters Iron Between Horns (age 18) and Kills Enemy (age 17) as wives. Corn's youngest daughter, Red Leggins, who was 15 at the time requested to go with her sisters and all would become Waglula's wives. When he got back to his village and his wife, Rattling Blanket Woman, found out about his new wives she became distraught. She and Waglula had been attempting to conceive another child, but had failed. The arrival of the new wives made her think she had lost favor with Waglula because she could not get pregnant. At the time they were camped along the White River. Without discussing it with Waglula she went out and hung herself from a cottonwood tree. Waglula mourned her death for four years and was celibate during that time. Upon hearing what had happened to her sister, Good Looking Woman, who also found she could not conceive, left her husband and came to Waglula to offer herself as a replacement wife for her sister. Waglula turned her down as a wife, but relented in allowing her to raise her sister's son, Crazy Horse. Later, Crazy Horse's other aunt They Are Afraid of Her helped in the raising of Crazy Horse. She helped teach him to hunt and take care of himself. They Are Afraid of Her was a very independent woman."

There is also information about Little Hawk I found interesting:
"Crazy Horse was in the Lakota camp with his younger brother, High Horse (son of Iron Between Horns and Waglula) and his cousin who he grew up with, Little Hawk (Little Hawk was actually the nephew of his maternal step grandfather, Corn), when it was attacked by Lt Grattan and 26 other troopers during the 'Grattan Fight'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse

I think this is worth a discussion.

Best wishes

Dietmar

P.S.: Black Buffalo was a Brule, wasn´t he?

[crzhrs]

Hmmm . . . where did Wakipedia get its info? Coincidence?

[Diane Merkel]

Anyone can edit the Wikipedia entries, which is why it is not a reliable source. I once met a woman whose hobby was editing grammatical errors in Wikipedia entries!

[harpskiddie]

All:

While searching for another title, I noticed that Dutch Hardorff had written what I think he called a 'preliminary' genealogical study of Crazy Horse. I am not big into this particular topic, but do find it exceedingly interesting, as well as very confusing, which is why I read the thread all the time, but seldom have anything to contribute. I just wonder if anyone has read Hardorff's book - he usually does great research.

As to Wikipedia - I think you can tell who actually enetered the information. Diane could probably comment more accurately on this subject than can I.

Gordie

[grahamew]

Two things:

Yes, I've read Hardorff, but it's a few years old now and it's clear from this thread, the book and the DVD that more detailed research has been done since.

The Wikipedia entry refers specifically to the DVD (though not in Dietmar's excerpt), so that may be the source of the above information.

[Dietmar]

I received the DVD today. The Wikipedia text indeed says exactly what is on the DVD.
There´s plenty of more detailed information about the families of Crazy Horse, Lone Horn, Black Buffalo, Corn, Hump and others. Very interesting, moving and great to watch (as Catherine and clw promised ).

[clw]

Dietmar:

I somehow missed this post last week. (This board is sometimes a little hard to navigate, but I'm getting the hang of it.) I just wanted thank you for your opinion of the DVD.

[Dietmar]

I wish we could discuss some of the information on the DVD, maybe when some more board members will have seen it...

[brock]

I have read this thread with much interest. I have read a couple of things that I would like to speak on.
First of all the correct pronunciation of Minniconjou is Mini-ko-ju. The 'n' was actually a phonetic 'n' with a long tail like the 'n' in sing. Almost silent...where the tongue doesn't touch the roof of the mouth like it does in name. When the priests were putting together the written version of the Lakota language they quite often used phonetic symbols to help in their pronunciation. When they sent it to press, the printer didn't have an 'n' character with a long tail (just like my keyboard) so they made it a regular 'n' so that now when those who have spent little or no time on the rez say it, they say it wrong. Yes, and even spell it wrong. So when the Park Service put up the memorial they wanted it to have the same phonetic sound as the members of that band would pronounce it...in a show of respect. That's why it's spelled as it is...by asking members of that band how it should be said properly.
Secondly I read somewhere in this thread (and in many, many other places) the name 'Roman Nose'. I can't believe that a Lakota would choose a name that says he has the same nose as the people who live in the capital of Italy. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out that the name makes no sense for a Lakota...or even a Cheyenne. How come in all the years that name has been in print nobody ever questioned it? The name was Roaming Nose...meaning going to other camps or gatherings and sticking your nose in their business. How do I know? I went to the rez and asked. I got laughed at and then corrected. It was all so simple AND it makes total sense. I was told it was also an endearing nickname for a traveler from another tribe.

Just like in the English language we might refer to someone who travels alot, say his real name is Bob Smith, with the term "globe trotter" and another writes "globe trotter" down thinking that is the person's actual name and years later Bob Smith only exists as "globe trotter" in any and all records.

So I think some of the names may be suspect. Either they gave wrong info, the interpreter misinterpreted (now there's a rarity...LOL), or the seekers had an agenda.

I find the whole discussion of oral and written history to be quite amusing. Oral history is criticized indirectly with the English speaking belief that "if you tell one person something and they pass it on and that person passes it on and so on to ten people the story will be completely different once it comes back to you." We learn this as children. But what they don't teach us is that the written word may not change, but agreement over what it means is constantly shifting. One good thing about the Lakota not having a written language...they didn't have to pay those high attorney fees to try to convince somebody what something says. So maybe the written word isn't solid after all. Maybe it just looks solid. Which is more important what you see or what you hear? Consider what a powerful source hearing is to a blind man. Or how important seeing is to a deaf person.

I think they both have value. I'm not prejudice against one or the other. I'll check out the book. The DVD I have seen several times.

[shatonska]

ciao brock

roman nose is related to the shape of the nose , ancient romans had a big curved nose , that's the origin of that word , in italy we use the word aquiline not roman for such noses

probably the translators used roman to explain the meaning of oglala and other tribes names , many native people had beatifull aquiline noses

[crzhrs]

Aquiline . . . I like that . . . my nose is sorta like that . . . aquiline.

Again we have the issue of losing something in translation . . .

[brock]

Thank you for your friendly salutation Shatonska. But I do hope you're joking with me. Otherwise what little logic I have in my tiny little brain is going to tell me to get off this chat room in a hurry.

Most of the translators were young men that had Lakota mothers and soldier, trapper, or trader fathers. They had little or no education and most could not write so somebody else wrote the responses for them. I really question if translators even knew there was an Italy let alone the shapes of their noses.

Another observation I've made on this thread is this: In the Combing interview of 1920 why was the question of whether Waglula and Woman's Breast even asked? It would seem that the questioner would have had to have been suspicious (even back then) that they were the same person otherwise why even bring it up.....unless they were just joking around. Also was the interview before or after the Wolf murder? I think a human response would be to separate one's self from being Wolf's brother after an incident like that just so one could die a natural death.
I guess I'll find that out when the book arrives and I've had a chance to study the notes. :-)

[shatonska]

brock

an indian name was big foot , why could'nt a man be called big or aquiline nose?, instead of using big it was nicer to use the word roman ( typical english 1800 literature , it doesn't matter the origin of the name or knowing italy ) translators told the name to officiers or traders probably by touching the nose and showing the shape to help and that particular name is born , it is strange but it is easy , the cheyenne name of the cheyenne roman nose was woquini , that means aquiline ( or maybe big ) nose (until someone say different , eheheheheh )

[crzhrs]

If one wants to get the difficulty of using interpreters see THE CUSTER MYTH Chapter: The Sioux THE STORIES OF LOW DOG, CROW KING, HUMP, IRON THUNDER

Capt. Howe: "I took pencil and paper and with Low Dog's consent noted it down. I have it almost word for word as translated by the interpreter, but I regret exceedingly that the interpreter did not give me a literal translation. All the Indians use a great many gestures and signs, and the interpreters tell me that it is very difficult to do more than give the substance of what they say."