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Post by Kentishman on Feb 6, 2023 12:09:29 GMT -6
There has been so much miss-information published about John Stuart Stuart Forbes (an unhyphenated surname, i.e., 'Stuart Forbes'). In 2016, together with Edinburgh-based historian Leslie Hodgson, I co-authored "English by Birth, Scottish by Blood: The Story of John Stuart Stuart Forbes, alias Private John S. Hiley, 7th Cavalry Regt. U.S. Army, Published by The English Westerners’ Society, London." I sent the late Fred Wagner a complimentary copy and this is his reply: "I must tell you, 'English by Birth, Scottish by Blood' is exactly what I would have expected. Not only informative, but to me, definitive and magnificently researched. My faith in you and your work is once again: confirmed.” As recently December 2022 the same little book was featured in an article in 'The Marlburian Club Magazine' [Marlborough College]. On receiving a copy of the aforementioned book, the author, Francis Chamberlain, wrote: "It's [the book] just arrived. I have only had a very quick look - but what scholarship! Hugely impressive." While biographically-based books by Carroll, Hammer, Nichols (Ed), Wagner and Williams are very useful references to the men who served in the 7th U.S. Cavalry on 25 June 1876, they are no substitute for one's own personal research which, of course, applies equally to everything I write. Nemo perfectus est. I hope you can share/correct misinformation that may appear on this board. Thanks for the mention of your book. Now we know! If Fred and I had been able to correspond longer he probably would have let me in on some of these great mysteries. There seems to be misinformation about almost every soldier. Jenny |
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Post by Kentishman on Feb 6, 2023 12:31:31 GMT -6
As older members of this board will remember Fred and I 'crossed swords' over some of the factual content of the first edition of "Participants" and yet, after seeking my help to improve it in the Second Edition, Fred gave me the longest and most flattering acknowledgement (see page 1) I've ever seen! The problem was McFarland gave Fred extremely short notice to submit the second text and I happened to be on holiday at the time, so one can understand my input was nowhere near as comprehensive as I would like it to have been. Consequently, the Second Edition contains numerous inaccuracies, including the nationality of Sgt John Vickory (real name John H. Groesbeck). On my website - www.menwithcuster.co.uk/fact-or-fiction - this is what I say about Vickory:- "Contrary to popular belief, I have found no evidence to support the claim that John H. Groesbeck (alias John Vickory) was born in Toronto, Canada. Why would a New Yorker (Saratoga County), Mariah Groesbeck, travel 300 miles in the late 1840s to a foreign country to give birth to just one of her eight or nine children? It makes no sense, whereas to John Groesbeck, a deserter from a New York regiment in the Union Army, laying a false trail clearly does. After all, he has successfully managed to deceive almost the entire Custer community for more than the last 150 years! The fact that at the age of sixteen he enlisted for military service in nearby Utica, New York, adds credence to him being born in the United States NOT Canada. As far as this writer is aware, Roger Williams (Military Register of Custer’s Last Command, 2009, p.141), is the only author to give Saratoga as Vickory’s place of birth though he does have him under the name of John H. Groesbeck, when no sergeant of that name ever served in the 7th U.S. Cavalry. Groesbeck is listed on the battlefield monument as JNO. VICKORY which is correct, as for the same reason John Stuart Stuart Forbes is shown as J. S. HILEY and Thomas P. Eagan as THOS. HAGAN. |
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Feb 6, 2023 20:37:07 GMT -6
Hmm. That's some sound reasoning,, I suppose. We have to take it all together and consider the reasons people did what they did. And BTW you might be interested in this discussion even though its old: lbha.proboards.com/thread/3629/sergeant-john-vickory Poster called bc makes some interesting points. I find it interesting that a soldier would claim to be a foreigner unless something went on during his previous service, where he also went by another name. J |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 7, 2023 10:13:25 GMT -6
You are right about the edition Peter, Fred kindly sent me a draught of his first edition via email which still has working notes stating updates.
Fred was an extremely generous man and posted me various magazines and periodicals about the battle, all at his own cost which I find a wonderful gesture since we had never met and the price of postage from New York to Cheshire England.
We spoke about meeting up at the LBH on a number of occasions and he once said that he would make a special trip on any date I could get over.
Fred had a great sense of humour and I regret never meeting him in person.
Ian
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Post by Kentishman on Feb 7, 2023 12:28:47 GMT -6
You are right about the edition Peter, Fred kindly sent me a draught of his first edition via email which still has working notes stating updates. Fred was an extremely generous man and posted me various magazines and periodicals about the battle, all at his own cost which I find a wonderful gesture since we had never met and the price of postage from New York to Cheshire England. We spoke about meeting up at the LBH on a number of occasions and he once said that he would make a special trip on any date I could get over. Fred had a great sense of humour and I regret never meeting him in person. Ian |
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Post by Kentishman on Feb 7, 2023 12:31:31 GMT -6
Ian, yes, you are right about Fred. By coincidence, on Thursday this week I’ll be in Cheshire for a couple of days visiting my son and family.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 7, 2023 15:00:14 GMT -6
I live in Cheshire but I was born a Lancashire lad, they changed the boundaries in 1974 and I am now a cesterian.
Widnes was north of the mersey, which was the old boundary between Lancashire and Cheshire, but they nicked it off us.
That being said, it is a lovely place, it gets more beautiful when you get past runcorn.
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Post by Kentishman on Feb 7, 2023 17:04:44 GMT -6
I live in Cheshire but I was born a Lancashire lad, they changed the boundaries in 1974 and I am now a cesterian. Widnes was north of the mersey, which was the old boundary between Lancashire and Cheshire, but they nicked it off us. That being said, it is a lovely place, it gets more beautiful when you get past runcorn. I was born in Kent, west of the River Medway, hence ‘a Kentish Man’, as against ‘a Man of Kent’ for those born to the east. In 1965 we were incorporated into Greater London. My other connection with Cheshire is I did my square bashing at RAF West Kirby, on the Wirral, while on National Service. |
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on Feb 7, 2023 19:08:34 GMT -6
You are right about the edition Peter, Fred kindly sent me a draught of his first edition via email which still has working notes stating updates. Fred was an extremely generous man and posted me various magazines and periodicals about the battle, all at his own cost which I find a wonderful gesture since we had never met and the price of postage from New York to Cheshire England. We spoke about meeting up at the LBH on a number of occasions and he once said that he would make a special trip on any date I could get over. Fred had a great sense of humour and I regret never meeting him in person. Ian I can't agree more about Fred. I never met him either but what a great guy. |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 8, 2023 7:33:56 GMT -6
You would have enjoyed posting with him Jenny.
I have only visited Kent twice Peter, Deal and Dover, but my brother in law comes from Maidstone, he came to Widnes in the late 1970s with the army working on green goddesses, it was during the era of strikes, very much similar to now.
RAF West Kirby will be long gone now, but the Wirral is a nice place, especially along the coast on the Dee estuary, facing Wales with its view of the Welsh mountains.
Ian
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Post by Kentishman on Feb 9, 2023 7:12:01 GMT -6
My train, on the way to Crewe, has just pulled out of Rugby Station, which reminded me of John Stuart Stuart Forbes who DID NOT attend Rugby School as is so often quoted, though his two older brothers, both noted gamblers, did. John was originally called John Stuart Forbes and the additional ‘Stuart’ was added to the family surname when his oldest brother, William, inherited the baronetcy from an uncle, hence the confusion.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 9, 2023 15:14:20 GMT -6
Only for rugby school and that funny shaped ball they threw about, we would have no rugby league.
May be no niche sports like American football, gealic football and aussie rules.
Ian
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