Cavalry Training

[Dark Cloud]

This will be good. conz apparently doesn't know what a general order is. Watch the spin, now.

All standing orders are general orders, among other things. It would not be possible to get through the Army without reading one, unless as part of his legacy benefits - legion - conz had someone read it to him.

[AZ Ranger]

www.uspharmd.com/usmc/mcgeneralorder.htm

[AZ Ranger]

Here is a General order from a Lt. Col. in 1944



HEADQUARTERS 328TH FIELD ARTILLERY BATTALION

APO 85, U.S. Army
10 July 1944

GENERAL ORDERS NO. 10

1. In compliance with paragraph 5, AR 600-68 dated 4 May 1943 the fo11owig named en1isted men are forfeited the right to wear the Good Conduct Medal and the Service Ribbon thereto effective this date:

HEADQUARTERS BATTERY
1st Sgt. Woodrow NMI Willis, 6262406.
{ NMI = No Middle Initial }
Pvt. Allen J. Sonnier, 34427786
BATTERY "A"
Pfc Steward A. Windle, 33444244.
Pfc Herbert A. Lundberg, 37275678.
Pvt. Frederick E. Green, 6947328.
BATTERY "B"
Pvt. Frederick E. Green, 6947328
Pvt. Paul R. Koontz, 35037993.
BATTERY "C"
Tec 4 James C. Sanders, 6955499.
Tec 5 George NMI Skoken, 33271369.
Pvt. Fred H. Tucker, 34205749.
SERVICE BATTERY
S/Sgt. Harvey E., Horn, 6284090.
Sgt. Clyde E. Schell, 37200951.
Pvt. Joseph M. Hogan, 32660492.
2. Under the provision of AR-600-68 and for exemplary behavior, efficiency and fidelity, the following named enlisted men are awarded the Good Conduct Medal:
HEADQUARTERS BATTERY
Sgt. Harvey A. Thorne, 35353827.
Tec 4 Victor L. Halpin, 12065441.
Tec 4 Edward C. Paukert, 37091885.
Tec 4 Wi11ard A. Weaver, 35022304.
Tec 4 Joseph M. Yanacheck, 36242324.
Cpl. David M. Hannaghan, 38171769.
Cp1. Frank NMI Patera., 33058873.
Cpl. Paul A. Rodkey, 33200653.
Tec 5 Cyril O. Burt, 39914370.
Tec 5 Carl W. Cherrier, 31209~14.
Tec 5 James C, Collins, 35651985-.
Tec 5 James N. McConnell, 39547842.
Tec 5 James NMI Sciame, 32524262.
Tec 5 Louis H. Smith, 33383090.
PFC Albert R. Bailey, 33444354.
PFC General R. Cato, 34444676. {An unusual first name}
PFC Wi11iam J. Daniel, Jr., 34374611.
PFC Henry J. Hinkel, 59327818
TEC 4 George -------(name cut off top of page)
Cpl. Alenander H. Brewster, 33093028
Cpl. Corne1ius J. Curtin, 32615404.
Cpl. Robert S. Dudley, 34330863.
Cpl. George L. Ferguson, 32267446.
Cpl. Arthur J. Groweg, 35286742.
Cpl. George R. Nikula, 36198580.
Cpl. Paul S. Powell, Jr., 15305996.
Tec 5 Willie J. Aldridge, 33217162.
Tec 5 Leslie I. Hoffman, 32341015.
Tec 5 Dominic P. Miccolia, 35164196.
Tec 5 Hubert A. Murrell, 3428560.
Tec 5 Herman W. Stoekmann, 37275844.
PFC Ado1ph NMI Garcia, 18049125.
PFC Frank W. Coffman, 32267773.
PFC Paul J. Koerber, 32200729.
PFC Walter T. Mahoney, 32338435.
PFC John N. McFarlin, 34283014.
PFC Carl H. Nelson, 34283014. (Clerk Error)
PFC Gordon L. Ostrander, 36460763.
PFC Willard L. Russ, 15308256.
PFC George J. Unis, 32282563.
Pvt. Douglas J. Aitchison, 32892386.
Pvt. Steve T. Bochniak, 36743653.
Pvt. Santo T. DePompo, 3254l958.
Pvt. Dale W. Enghusen, 39618473.
Pvt. Robert R. Heister, 3373861.
Pvt. Lowman NMI Hudson, 34513961.
Pvt. Fred .NMI Janssen, 326~9231.
Pvt. James NMI Koons, 33368407. (letter re-struck)
Pvt. Albert J. Loyack, 33359283.
Pvt. Ernest E. McCudlar, 34480400.
Pvt. William NMI Reich, 32927397.
Pvt. John S. Solla, 35200664.
Pvt. Donald D. Viall, 11083227.
Pvt. William F. Wingerson, 33678711.
BATTERY "B"

S/Sgt Ira T. Slaugter, 38025l85.
Sgt. Condon E. Davis, 34283191.
Tec 4 John I. Fields, 34303878.
Tec 4 Edwin NMI Smith, 33200320.
Cpl. Joseph NMI Harchar, 33058805.
Cpl. Arnold L. Kearby, 36074866.
Tec 5 Lonzo H. Conley, 34327143.
Tec 5 Thomas J. Mayer, 37270009.
PFC Jessie J. Biangone, 33685497.
PFC Thomas NMI Cappiello, 32333290.
PFC John L. Coffey, 34433172.
PFC Edward J. Faras, 33337431.
PFC Albert NMI Kester, 38128320.
PFC Leo W. Northup, 3719 5772.
PFC Daniel L. Pearson, l3l29584.
PFC James J. Reynolds, Jr., 31292984.
PFC Melvin W. Rupe, 35565081.
PFC John P. Ryan, 33313916.
PFC Delmar N. Scott, 35499368.
PFC Vincent P. Tuffy, 32340978.
PFC Arthur W. Willis, 36241007.
Pvt. Robert W. Bloomgren, 33437013.
Pvt. Michael M. DeSisto, 32891956.
Pvt. Arthur E. Laughner, 13132650.
Pvt. Robert. J. Mayle, 35741539.
Pvt. Raymond W. Perry, 3l3l8834.
Pvt. Thomas NMI Pratley, 33778451.
Pvt. Walter H. Quay, Jr., 12214481.
Pvt. Eugene A. Rathgeber, 11120262.
Pvt. Samuel NMI Simonian, 31292064.
Pvt. Earl R. Smith, 34730451.


BATTERY "C"
S/Sgt. John A. Peterson, 6958960.
Sgt. Charlie D. Glidden, 38035443.
Sgt. Grover C. Hodges, 33l58836.
Cpl. James F. Hil1, 69235l6.
Cpl. Ralph NMI Walker, 36074785e
Tec 5 Frank T. Dudek, 15091556.
Tec 5 Floyd V. Moshier, 32579090.
Tec 5 Murrel R. Quick, 32629467.
PFC Robert T. McCullough, 34444492.
PFC Wi1liam R. Wesson, 34428209.
Pvt. William E. Davis, 35660504.
Pvt. George H. Downey, 32757741.
Pvt. David L. Reid, 34782374.
Pvt. Richard J. Willming, 35658188.


SERVICE BATTERY
Sgt. Boyd G. Condley, 6291712.
Tec 4 Netten T. Carter, 34276055.
Tec 4 George F. Doyal, 6952967.
Tec 4 Ray W. Samuelson, 37274567.
Cpl. John Vatral, 32302020.
PFC Anthony A. Ciarcia, 32336834.
PFC Bernard W. Mackin, 37183910.
PFC Howard L. Phillips, 37194925.
Pvt. Max NMI Bork, Jr., 35743678e
Pvt. Donald K. Colgan, 37478383.
Pvt. Hubert W. DilLard, 345l4l57.
Pvt. Joseph W. Ley, 32831207.
Pvt. John H. Rossi, 31334973.
Pvt. Emmett A. Tresse11, 35586807.
Pvt. Joseph F. Wahrlich, 32851715.
Pvt. L. (IO) D. (IO) Walters, 344228375.
{ (IO) = Initial Only }


MEDICAL DETACHMENT
Tec 3 John P. Brand, 37276795.
Tec 4 William KMI Klinger, Jr., 35345358.
Cpl. Herbert NMI Creasing, 33058982.
PFC Thomas E. Adaway, 32629401.

By order of Lt. Col. BURT0N:

JAMES T. HENSON, SR.
WOJG, USA,
Personnel Adjutant.


0FFICIAL:
(signature)
JAMES T. HENSON, SR.,
WOJG, USA,
Personnel Adjutant.

[AZ Ranger]

Col Sturgis issued General Order 7 in April of 1878 protecting Comanche.

I believe Lt. Col Custer issued a general order on how equipment was to be carried on the troopers saddle.

[bc]

I read a lot of general orders while working as an operations sergeant in the S2/S3 shack.

My favorite is General Order No. 4 as ordered by Captain Kirk and directed to Lieutenant Commander Scott.

[AZ Ranger]

Nov 28, 2007 9:35:21 GMT -6 @conz said:

Thought I 'd start a thread where we could consolidate evidence of the training of the cavalry officers and Troopers during this period. I'll start with this gem:

"Cosby was a veteran of the Mounted Rifles and had been severely wounded in combat against the Comanches in 1854. Cosby remembered this experience when he served as an instructor at West Point. He developed a set of training exercises in hand-to-hand combat. Much like a modern martial arts teacher, Cosby demonstrated to his class using two cadets, Fitzhugh Lee and Manning Kimmel, as dummies. Cosby taught saber thrusts, use of a revolver as a club, and wrestling holds. Within the coming year his instruction was to save Lee's life." -- Arnold in Jeff Davis's Own

This is the first indication I've read of hand-to-hand combat training for the frontier Soldiers. Of course, most units also had boxing and wrestling teams as intramural competition, and that would also count as combat training.

Clair

In reviewing this, isn't the instruction being given to officers? So continue on with the chain of events in training that gets it to the private. If one were to believe you that only NCOs had any responsibility for training how does training a West Point officer help the trooper.

Who cares what these officers did or thought pertaining to training? Didn't they have NCO's?!

Have you guys learned nothing?

Clair

Which is it either the officers passed on training or nobody cared what they did or thought?

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

Oct 19, 2008 1:01:43 GMT -6 bc said:

I read a lot of general orders while working as an operations sergeant in the S2/S3 shack.

My favorite is General Order No. 4 as ordered by Captain Kirk and directed to Lieutenant Commander Scott.

Another example of a general order not being written by a General.

[AZ Ranger]

General Order 10
To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.

This is a USMC General Order Conz but I am sure the Army has the same and I am sure you obeyed it at some time.

[clansman]

I don't think anyone said that ONLY NCOs have responsibility for training. It's obvious that officers had overall charge but the vast majority had confidence in their NCOs and left the training to them.

[AZ Ranger]

Oct 19, 2008 6:04:01 GMT -6 @clansman said:

I don't think anyone said that ONLY NCOs have responsibility for training. It's obvious that officers had overall charge but the vast majority had confidence in their NCOs and left the training to them.

"Who cares what these officers did or thought pertaining to training? Didn't they have NCO's?!

Have you guys learned nothing?


Clair "


Looks pretty close to it to me.


AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

clansman

Although you stated you support Conz most of your information supports what I and others contend. I believe the cavalry performed lots of policing actions and their duty post required them to be ready for action on a daily basis just like police officers or soldiers stationed out of country. You example of marksmanship is spot on for soldiers that would be exposed to threats on a daily basis. I believe the conditions for a trooper in the 1870's was at least as likely to be exposed to threats on a daily basis. I believe that the troopers needed to be battle ready at all times marksmanship would be only one of the skills needed to be considered battle ready.

I received training in the Marine Corps so I know first hand how it was done. I have spent 30 years as an officer and have been a training officer for almost 20 years. I am responsible for the firearms training in my Region. I am a tactical handgun, shotgun, and rifle instructor. I am a Colt AR, Remington 870 shotgun, and Sig Sauer Armorer.

My point in stating that is I still have to read in literature to find out what the Game Wardens did in the late 1800's or the Rangers in the early 1900s. On that basis anyone can read an be able to post their comments on what occurred in the 1870s. We are here to share information and discuss but I do not believe that unless you know the secret handshake that you can not comment.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[clansman]

AZ Ranger.

I think you misunderstood my post. When I said I supported conz I was talking exclusively about firearms training. I realise your military experience is far greater than mine but I think my 12 year experience allows me to comment. I was not referring to the LBH or the CW. I was merely relating my experience and how we did things in my battalion. When we were in Northern Ireland we were exposed to threats on a daily basis. Hope this clears things up.
clansman.

[biggordie]

AZ and clansman:

When I received my first formal firearms training, the training schedule for the various companies was laid out in a General Order. My understanding of the term General Order was not that it came from a general officer [many of them did, maybe most of them], but that it was published to and intended for the general consumption of the command to which it was addressed - army, division, regiment, battalion, or post etc etc etc. One of the other General Orders was to the effect that all rocks lining the company streets were to be painted white and maintained to a newly-painted-looking standard. There were others relating to daily sick parades and other stuff. These General Orders pertained only to the camp where I was training - other installations would have had similar, but perhaps differing GOs.

The firing range also had posted General Orders regarding safety, handling of weapons and ammunition etc etc. These had been promulgated over several years by the various range commanders, none of whom were general officers.

Rifle firing for qualification was conducted at ranges out to 600 or 800 yards with generally 2 magazines [5 rounds each] fired at each distance from 50 yards out [50, 100, 200, 300 etc]. Basic rifle training was conducted every two weeks. Top qualifiers were selected for additional training in addition to the regular firing, and for training with other weapons - side arms and light machine guns, if they desired such.

The Seventh Cavalry did not undergo any such level of firearms training, and could not have done so, unless there was a concerted effort on the part of the officers to "fudge" the records relative to the expenditure of ammunition, so as to obtain more [they might have "invented" minor engagements in which rounds were expended]. I would venture a guess that most of the firearms training was of the "dry firing" type, to give some familiarity with handling the weapons, loading and unloading, pointing and aiming, adjusting sights etc etc.

There is a definite paucity of records, which [to me] points to the fact that not much was done on the range.

FWIW

Gordie

[rch]

Service in the 20th or 21st Century military is sometimes useful in the study of Custer's Last Stand. However the differences between our experiences and the Army of 1876 are too significant to make any assumptions that what we knew was what the Army in 1876 did. In fact I might know more about the Army I served in because I've been wandering around in the Army of 1876 for 50 years.

For instance, I know what a weekly training schedule looked like when I was in the service, but based on what I have read, I doubt that such schedules was used in the 1870's. It was for this reason that I think that the post and regimental schedules and general and special orders and circulars might be the place to look for information about drill and training.

I know about the 11 general orders for guard duty. In the late 60's the Army reduced them to three. It appeared the me at the time that "repeating calls from posts more distant from the guardhouse" than my own had outlived its usefulness. General orders were used to announce awards and decorations. Beyond that I don't know how they were used, and since I am not interested in the study of how the Army worked during the Vietnam War, I'll let those who are try to figure it out.

As for the Army of Custer's time, I think General and many Special Orders were important and were meant to be read. Lee's famous "lost order" during the Antietem campaign was a special order. The order above mentioned for the daily schedule at Ft Totten was a general order. Regimental special orders mentioned in Nichols' "Men With Custer" dealt with the promotion and assignments of individual soldiers. Terry's order for Reno's scout was the 2nd part of a special field order; the 1st part had to do with the purchase of Mackinac boats. Circulars seem to have served the purpose of unit SOP's. Custer's Cicular 31 issued for the 10 company detachment of the 7th Cav being prepared to march with the Yellowstone Expedition described what the men should carry and how.

It is also possible that verbal orders having to do with drill were given at the daily officer's call or at other times during the day.

We know that at the RCOI, Sgt Culbertson's defined a recruit as having less than 6 months service, and Reno let it stand. And we also know that only 9 or 10 men with less than 6 months with the regiment marched with Custer from the Yellowstone.

rch

[conz]

Oct 18, 2008 8:49:47 GMT -6 AZ Ranger said:

Silly...for one, I don't know of any "CO's" that didn't believe in marksmanship training. Just the opposite...I've seen many accounts where the company and regimental commanders DID believe in, and do, marksmanship training.

Provide proof. I would like to see it.

Aye...that is what this thread is about. Just keep reading postings about cavalry training of that period around here.

The most important pieces of evidence are NOT what historians say about Army training of that day...more believable is what the Soldiers of the day say that they did each day. And they include a LOT of training in their correspondence, and anywhere you see "this is what my day is like..." Training, drill, mounted drill, guard mount, patrols, hunting, firing. It's all in their daily accounts, officer and men alike.

Clair