Defending Reno Hill

[AZ Ranger]

CSS Reply 7: "The Indians told Miles that they were fearing attacks by Reno and Benteen even after Reno's defeat. "

CSS Reply 13:"Reno wasn't agressive at all. His charge was never a charge, it was at best a quick movement. He never tried to theaten the Indians and even when he had the advantage of ground, he ran away."

[Dark Cloud]

Miles lied a lot, we know. See: Mary Adams, Edgerly forgery. I think that's why CSS holds him so high.

[crzhrs]

Bada Bing!

[wild]

Could Benteen's passive behavior be put down to his lack of confidence in his men.Is it possible that he thought that the 7th were incapable of offensive action and the best that could be achieved with them was static defence?

[crzhrs]

I believe Benteen stated his men would be no match against the 900 warriors he saw chasing Reno.

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

I think you rather miss the point about the Reno Hill fight. The point was to prevent the Indians from bringing their superior numbers to bear by making it too expensive to try to cross the no man's land. This was plainly something that Custer failed to do. Of course the reverse was true as well and the warriors were able, in general, to prevent the troopers from moving forward. The exception was the areas of cover on the bluff edge where the warriors periodically attempted to infiltrate and the cavalry kept them off by judicious charges.

I have never before seen anybody raise the prospect of the cavalry attempting a sustained offensive from Reno Hill once they were surrounded there, but having thought about it for a brief time I can see why.

Hi CSS

I think you need to be a little more selective in your choice of witnesses from the Weir area. I guess most of them would not wish to be included alongside Pigford.

Just to address the one officer's actual observations that you chose to quote Lt Hare. If, as he said the Indians were thick upon Custer Ridge, and given the warriors usual disinclination to expose themselves needlessly to gunfire, where do you think Custer was?

With respect to Michno, I think his account is a useful source of Indian quotes but since none of them gave any firm indication to the time of day I regard his timings as largely fiction. He chooses to split the time up into 10 minute segments but in none of the accounts from individuals is it possible to string them all together and demonstrate that the total elapsed timeline is realistic. He carefully omits or truncates accounts such as that of Standing Bear who clearly relates that the Custer fight had been finished for some time before they observed the Weir advance.

My current view is that the Custer part of the fight lasted between 75 and 90 minutes and started somewhere in the region of Medecine Tail Couley before Custer had even approached the river and the major mopping up finished around 1715 with Custer being killed at around 5pm.

Regards

Mike

[Banned]

darkcloud said:

Miles lied a lot, we know. See: Mary Adams,

You're mistaken. Miles was right about Maria Adams, who was Mary's sister and was with Custer.

You should be aware of the LBH controversies before showing your ignorance.

[Banned]

mcaryf said:

Hi Wild

I think you need to be a little more selective in your choice of witnesses from the Weir area. I guess most of them would not wish to be included alongside Pigford.

Garry Owen,
I was sure that you would pick Pigford up. I used his quotes because many people said that he was a liar because he was talking about a battle when everybody thought it had already ended. But it wasn't the case, as Varnum, Hare and even Benteen (he put a flag on a hill "to SHOW HIS POSITION TO CUSTER")

[wild]

Hi Mike
The casualties suffered by the troops on Reno Hill would suggest they got a mauling.At no time was organised fire control used.At no time was volley firing utilized.The firepower of 300 long range carbines was never concentrated.This was one stage of the battle which should have gone the way of the 7th but all that can be said is that they survived.

[crzhrs]

Whoops . . . I entered this on the other topic . . . so here it is here:

A few accounts from Reno Hill survivors about soldier/Indian firing:

Varnum: ". . . they (Indians) piled lead into us (26th) at a fearful rate . . ."

Benteen (to wife): ". . . they pounded at us all of what was left of the 1st day & the whole of the 2nd day . . ."

Reno: ". . . one of the heaviest (26th) firing I have ever witnessed . . ."

Edgerly: ". . . the next morning (26th) heavy firing commenced from the hills . . ."

Godfrey: ". . . the Indians (25th) opened up a heavy fire . . . early dawn (26th) both sides kept up a continuous fusillade . . . we forbade our men, except good shots, to fire without orders . . ."

Godfrey is the only one who mentions conserving ammo. There may be other survivor accounts but I just checked these few.

[harpskiddie]

There is an excellent article in the Spring 1966 issue of Montana Magazine by William G. Rector titles: Fields of Fire - The Reno-Benteen Defense Perimeter, in which the author delineates the positions of the variious companies, and their respective fields of fire. Anyone remotely interested in where the troops were positioned, what they could and could not cover from those firing positions, and why [perhaps] Benteen's H Company took so many casualties should consult this source.

Gordie,
and together we will flow into the mystic.......................................................................

[Banned]

crzhrs, I know you love to tell us how great Indian warriors were, but Sergeant Ryan remembered the story of an Indian who was a good shooter, and he was telling this story because it was unusual. Edgerly remembered that a private was laughing because Indians were so poor shooters.

[Banned]

harpskiddie said:

Benteen's H Company took so many casualties should consult this source.

Benteen's company is another story. The ravine made its position vulnerable (that's why Benteen rightly charged the Indians, making his first attack of Indians for the whole 1876 campaign).

[crzhrs]

How many Indians did the soldiers on Reno Hill kill from their positions?

If you were a soldier on Reno Hill how comfortable would you feel with hundreds of Indians shooting at you? Would you care if they were good, bad, or average shooters? Or would you just stand up and say "try and kill me"?

[Banned]

I don't say soldiers LOVED to be shoot at, but the story - as well as usual comments by Plains soldiers, don't tell great stories about the Indian markmanship.
Don't tell me Dr. DeWolfe's story about markmanship in the 7th, I already know it. But about Indians, the majority of the soldiers thought that they were bad shooters.