Accurate Cavalry Count

[markland]

"Well, wait. See, this is where words matter.

In discussing Enlisted Indian Scouts , you avoid the term and say scouts were counted as part of the army on the registers. Were these the short term Indian Scouts as well? I see a difference between the North's Pawnee Scouts and Cody and the ad hoc volunteer scouts from the Arikaree and Shoshone for a campaign."

Actually, I avoided the typing. Without having a definition, I am calling "enlisted Indian scouts" as on a par with Crook's Apache scouts, the North brother's Pawnee scouts, the Winnebago scouts from the Civil War era, etc. How the Shoshone, Arickaree and Crow fit in, I have no idea. When I get to that portion of the enlistment records, perhaps I can state definitively, until then, you have to make your own definition up-unless you are willing to do some research yourself and find the answer? You have the facilities, the Denver NARA site is not too far from you.

You may also consider Forsyth's scouts...they were enlisted as QM Department employees (if memory is not totally haywire).

Be good, time to finish burning the pork tenderloins on the grill.

Billy

[Dark Cloud]

Those are squirrels, Markland, not pork tenderloin. If you'd hit a pig in that Olds of yours, the one held together with Chiefs stickers, you'd have saved some brake fluid coming to a complete and abrupt halt. And if they're burned on the grill, you need to to re-discover anti-freeze and, you know, water to keep the engine from getting hot enough to burn a Kansan Squirrel. Supposedly ten miles under forty mph does them about right.

Going to Denver to is much like going to Kansas. I live in Boulder. Home of stalwarts who aren't afraid of typing two extra words.

[ephriam]

I agree that Indian Scouts were considered seperate by the Army leadership from the regular enlisted men but I would still count them as part of the regiment's strength that day.

They will not appear on the 7th Cavalry regimental returns because Indian scouts were considered to represent their own informal regiment. Scouts were enlisted with the same paperwork as the regular enlisted men (they have their own volumes within the Register of Enlistments, U.S. Army), and officers were required to submit seperate muster rolls for the Indian scouts. Lieut. William Philo Clark, who commanded the Indian scouts at Red Cloud and Spotted Tail Agencies in 1877, divided them into companies, each with non-commissioned officers. Indian scouts also received pensions in later years, just as the enlisted soldiers did. On many post returns, you can find the Indian Scouts listed seperately as part of the post's strength, just as another regiment, though this is not consistently done by all post adjutants.

If you would like to read more about Indian scouts in the U.S. Army, I would suggest: Thomas W. Dunlay, Wolves for the Blue Soldiers: Indian Scouts and Auxiliaries with the United States Army, 1860-90 (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1982).

[elisabeth]

I believe the LBH scouts may have been QM employees, too; I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was Nowlan who signed them up ... Since he was QM for the expedition, and not just for the regiment, this would presumably cover Terry's Crows as well as Custer's Rees -- or would it?

harpskiddie: well sleuthed.

[markland]

Ephriam, good stuff. Of course, now I have to find that darned book to add to the library!

Billy

[harpskiddie]

Elisabeth: I think you are right about the QM employee thing. Varnum kept the muster rolls for the scouts as part of his duties as "Chief of Scouts."

My point in including the scouts in my strength tables is simply that they were there on the campaign, different numbers of them at different times, since many were detached for mail and courier duties along the way. Some of them fought alongside the troops and some did not, and where they did not, I don't include them in strength tables for that particular phase of the battle.

Good to "see" you again. I must say that this forum seems to be a lot more civilized than the Delphi one.

Markland: the "Wolves" book is excellent, and you will surely enjoy it.

[Scout]

Interesting note on the Indian scouts...they are all listed as MIA...missing in action. Seems after the battle they went home...never reported back to command. I don't know how they signed on as...never seen any information on their short term enlistments, or perhaps 'hiring' would be a better term. Did they actually sign something? I suppose like Charley Reynolds signed on for the one expedition only. Wonder in what archive those can be found in?

ephriam: How did you make five star general after only 62 posts? You must have some pull in Washington.

[elisabeth]

This might be of interest, from a recent auction: a scout's discharge paper.

tinyurl.com/esbht

If the discharge papers were as formal as this, no doubt the enlistment ones were too.

(BTW, whoever got this lot in the auction cornered a rare treasure. Not only is it signed by both Keogh and Calhoun, but it dates from the very brief window of time late in 1875 when Keogh was in command of Fort Lincoln -- between Custer going on leave and Reno returning from his one-year absence. It was only for about a month, so there can't be many such documents around.)

[harpskiddie]

Scout: No doubt you got the MIA from Fred Dustin - the famous "the scouts turned and fled and were never seen again" [not meant to be a direct quote].

Here is a direct quote - from Reminiscences of Charles A. Varnum, edited by John M. Carroll: "I had mustered my detachment on the 30th 0f June & dropped twenty scouts as 'missing in action'. I found them all at Powder River, and they were paid on the rolls on which they were dropped."

It was two of the scouts who first met Terry's command down in the valley on the 27th. If you are interested in their numbers during the campaign and in the fights, let me know, and I'll dig them out again and post them all for you.