answer to why Custer moved on battle ridge ?

[shatonska]

2 companies were at the ford , 3 companies were on the ridges waiting for Benteen , volleis were fired at woolf thoot's band that was positioning between Custer and Benteen ( volleis heard on Reno hill by Benteen's companies just arrived)
after the volleis Custer from east ridge see soldiers on reno hill and decide to move on cahloun hill benteen can come soon, benteen is near and road is now free (woolf thooth as retreated east)
Custer's intention is still going north where indian familes have gathered
do you think Custer seeing companies on reno hill is the reason he moved north instead of waiting for benteen arrival ?
i think it is not probable that he went north pushed by indians ( too few at that time) and let's say he moved because of indian pressure why goind north instead or retreating back on his trail where he could be helped ?
maybe he moved north because he thought that his back was covered by Benteen's arrival seen few minutes away

[elisabeth]

Hmmm. Interesting idea.

It revolutionises the timing; but it's intriguing to think about ...

[shatonska]

elisabeth said:

Hmmm. Interesting idea.

It revolutionises the timing; but it's intriguing to think about ...

why the timing ?
vollies on luce nye were heard on reno hill as soon as they arrived there , soldiers said the battle was at the ford, nearer than cahloun hill
mmm nothing is certain

[mcaryf]

I think the trouble with the idea that Benteen/Reno are seen on Reno Hill is why Custer still waits in area of LSH for Benteen to come. Surely he would attempt some form of communication. If he imagines Benteen is now waiting for the packtrain but he wants some of Benteen's strength he would probably want to suggest that some part of Benteen's force comes on. Is there any evidence that a messenger or messengers were sent? Keogh appears to have kept two companies in reserve so surely one of those could have been sent to re-establish communicatuions if there were problems with an individual getting through.

The big problem I have with the Northward move is not that Custer goes on a recce but that he seems to stay there rather than coming back to Keogh or indeed further to Benteen/Reno if he knows where they are.

Remember Custer's force can see as far as Weir Point so they know that Reno/Benteen are at least 30 minutes away even if they are coming so why not move towards them.

Regards

mike

[elisabeth]

shatonska,

Apologies -- I read your post too fast. I was thinking you meant Weir Point, not -- as you said -- Reno Hill.

Mike, I share your bafflement about that.

Re communications: well, Kuhlman had the theory that all three Right Wing companies were sent back from LSH to open communications with troops on the bluffs (in his version, the Weir Point advance troops rather than those on Reno Hill); but no-one seems to give that any credence nowadays. Other than that, we've got a few stray individuals -- e.g. Butler -- who could be candidates for messenger; no firm evidence, though. And one Co. I man who fetches up with the Reno Hill crew, Gustave Korn. His story was that his horse bolted, carried him across the river and through the Indian lines, till he met up with the pack train just as it was going up onto Reno Hill. Fred did a great job of demolishing this story on this board a few months ago (though personally I still like it -- sorry, Fred!), and there's at least one bit of enlisted-man testimony to the effect that Korn was with the packtrain all along. But ... conceivable that he was in fact carrying a message? He does say he was Keogh's orderly that day ... No, it would be conspiracy theory run wild to entertain that idea; it would call for the most massive cover-up! And his arrival at the packtrain puts him too late, I think? Intriguing to consider, though ...

[Gumby]

Neither Benteen nor Reno's forces could be seen by Custer from MTFord area or any other location north of there. The terrain between them wouldn't allow it.

We don't know where Custer's forces were when Reno/Benteen men heard firing. They may have been on Calhoun Hill and Calhoun Ridge. The firing would probably have been heard from there as well.

[crzhrs]

Boston told his brother that Benteen should be coming up soon. Did Custer then base his next move on Benteen's assumed arrival? Yes.

However, once Benteen does not arrive soon, Custer must have realized something was up:

1. Benteen was now engaged elsewhere

Or

2. Benteen may have stopped to assist Reno

Custer should then have altered his plan. Did he?

[shatonska]

gumby said:

Neither Benteen nor Reno's forces could be seen by Custer from MTFord area or any other location north of there. The terrain between them wouldn't allow it.

We don't know where Custer's forces were when Reno/Benteen men heard firing. They may have been on Calhoun Hill and Calhoun Ridge. The firing would probably have been heard from there as well.

i base this theory on Michno's account in lakota noon , he says that from east ridge (that near luce ridge) you can clearly see reno hill and that cases were found on est ridge too

[mcaryf]

I have had some difficulty in understanding what Custer was doing staying so far to the North and what he might have imagined was happening to Reno and Benteen. I cannot see that he is just waiting for Benteen because he must realise after some time that Benteen, for whatever reason, is not coming and anyway just another 100 or so troops is not really going to make that much difference.

I am now vaguely starting to think about another theory - perhaps Custer is thinking strategically. He may know or think that Reno is destroyed and that he does not have the strength with or without Benteen to defeat the hostiles. So perhaps he is trying to salvage something from the disaster, if he can stay where he is and effectively shepherd the village into a northerly movement then Terry and Gibbon come into play. He no longer wants to provoke a fight with the hostiles because he thinks he cannot win so if he adopts a lowish profile on their East flank with Benteen and possibly Reno to the South of them then they may move towards Terry.

I have seen suggestions of at least one messenger sent to the North to Terry - this would be something to support the Custer as shepherd rather than wolf theory!

Regards

Mike

[Gumby]

Shatonska,
Sharpshooter Ridge blocks the view.

[markland]

I am now vaguely starting to think about another theory - perhaps Custer is thinking strategically. He may know or think that Reno is destroyed and that he does not have the strength with or without Benteen to defeat the hostiles. So perhaps he is trying to salvage something from the disaster, if he can stay where he is and effectively shepherd the village into a northerly movement then Terry and Gibbon come into play. He no longer wants to provoke a fight with the hostiles because he thinks he cannot win so if he adopts a lowish profile on their East flank with Benteen and possibly Reno to the South of them then they may move towards Terry.

Mike, not to say that it is not possible, but when reading the above, one thought keeps running through my head..."herding cats".

Best of wishes,

Billy

[crzhrs]

I think the last thing Custer wanted was to fail . . . he was already in hot water with Grant and some of his administration. A failure would be humilating and prove that he was unfit for the job.

I believe he was on the offensive as long as possible and was looking for any opportunity to get into the village . . . but everything fell apart. His last hope was Benteen but he saved Reno rather than Custer.

[Gumby]

I agree. I don't think he could have herded that many Indians. They would have broke and ran in several directions if they felt the need to run at all.

I think Custer felt that Reno would be able to hold out longer than he did. Whether he could have or not is debatable. The point is he didn't and Custer did not take the pressure off of him soon enough to avoid the rout that followed.

[crzhrs]

If the village was as large as many believe then there would have been thousands of non-coms running and in all directions. Custer's 5 companies wasn't even enough to hold off warriors so it seems dubious that Custer would divide his command even smaller to go after non-coms and keep the rest to fight off warriors.

Whatever his plans were the Indians stopped it before it could even be implemented.

[El Crab]

gumby said:

Shatonska,
Sharpshooter Ridge blocks the view.

So is Michno lying?