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Post by Tricia on Mar 30, 2006 17:04:19 GMT -6
All--
Much is made of the condition of the mounts in Custer's battalion and how many of the horses from C company came up lame, exhausted, or both--Peter Thompson's story comes to mind ...
My question deals with the horses with Captain Benteen and their "trot" upon receiving Custer's final message. I've learned recently that the trot is a specific conveyence used by the cavalry that does not tire horses and have read that had Benteen ordered a gallop, especially after their oblique movements, his horses would have tired out long before they could even reach Custer, rendering any aide he could muster effectively, well, ineffective.
Were the captain's orders made to save the horses for when they would be most needed or was Benteen--in an act of rampant immaturity--just tossing aside the lives of Custer's battalion because he and the Lt. Colonel didn't get along?
Regards,
Leyton McLean
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Post by Jim on Mar 30, 2006 17:15:14 GMT -6
Leyton--
Even though Benteen disliked Custer with a passion, I do not believe he would have ignored the rest of GAC's command. He was under the impression that Custer was attacking the village and the Indians were "Skedaddling."
Benteen was probably, in my opinion, the best commander GAC had. If he knew the dire position GAC was in, he probably would have pressed his battalion to getting there earlier, but he wasn't under that impression.
I also think he managed his battalion excellently, resting the horses in a "TROT" and watering them at the morass. By doing this his unit would be able to extend its service for the overall battle, and be more effective, if needed.
Jim
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 30, 2006 17:42:22 GMT -6
After Benteen's command traveled about looking for Indians on his scout . . . undoubtedly the horses may have been winded. Plus the horses had been on a long march ever since leaving the Far West.
Once Benteen decided to turn back and got the message from Martini he moved forward. They heard firing and advanced more rapidly and saw the last of the Reno fight.
How tired were the horses? I don't really know and there has not been any testimony from survivors on the condition of the horses.
Weir's Advance was quite a bit after Benteen reinforced Reno and may have given the horses a chance to catch their breath (can horses do that?) They then advanced toward Custer but I don't believe they were moving very fast.
According to Martini, once he got his orders from Custer to find Benteen he stated once he saw Benteen he waved his hat and urged his horse on, but the horse was too tired to move very fast.
The condition of the horses has been brought many times . . . it may have been a factor it's hard to determine how much.
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Post by Tricia on Mar 31, 2006 9:59:35 GMT -6
Jim--
I have to agree with you. The more I read about Benteen, the more admiring I become of him. Granted he was an acerbic individual, but this whole deal about how he knowingly allowed GAC and his battalion to die because of a childish grudge doesn't take into account his ACW record and history.
And one had to manage the horses appropriately, especially given the heat of that particular day. I don't think GAC was speeding about on the ridges, was he?
I'm still not one for Reno, however. But his men at least survived.
LMC
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 31, 2006 10:13:28 GMT -6
Agreed that Benteen would not willingly betray Custer, let alone all the men with him.
He may have felt he was on a wild goose chase and kept out of any action and thus get no credit for any victory . . . but I don't think Custer was that petty either.
So that leaves Benteen slowly scouting--he does not want to rush into any ambushes, give away his position, and not wear out the horses in case something comes up--and realizes he is wasting valuable time looking for something that is not there.
He returns on his own, still not rushing to tip off Indians and/or ambush, meets up with Kanipe who is looking for the packtrain and NOT Benteen, gives an overly opptunistic account of Custer and moves on. Martini shows up with his written/verbal orders and also gives the impression that Custer is riding through the Indian village and about to have a great victory. Benteen heeding the order, decides it would be wasting time to go back for the packs and heads to assist Custer, only to see Reno's rout and save him.
The only downside is someone should have sent a couple of companies to check on what's up with Custer once Benteen/Reno unite.
Other than that Benteen did the right thing at the time.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 31, 2006 12:07:50 GMT -6
Quote:The only downside is someone should have sent a couple of companies to check on what's up with Custer once Benteen/Reno unite.:quote.
I don't think it wouldn't have mattered a bit if Benteen just tipped his hat as he rode by Reno and his men and kept riding toward Custer. When Benteen showed up, some of Custer's Bn was already engaged at the ford and beginning their retreat.
It took D troop almost half an hour to make it to Weir point (and half an hour to return, even being pressed). It would have taken another half hour to get down past Medicine Tail Coulee. And how much longer to even get to Calhoun ridge--if he could have even gotten there by that time. By then Custer was too deeply engaged and spread out to gain much from an additional hundred or so men.
No, all it would have done was add more to the casualty figure...and left Reno in a position of possibly going under too.
Let's face it, Custer just spread himself too thin.
Jas.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 31, 2006 12:13:57 GMT -6
PS to the above--All my thinking is of course hindsight. The crux of this matter is Benteen didn't know at the time what Custer was doing and the fix he'd gotten into. So perhaps he should have at least tried to continue executing his written orders. But even so, the emphasis was on bringing up the packs--and no one can seriously entertain the thought that he could have actually done that in time.
I would assume that while waiting for the packs to come up he made a decision to stay with Reno.
Jas.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 31, 2006 12:22:33 GMT -6
Jas:
Yes, but it was quite a bit after Benteen showed up that Weir took off . . . if two companies were sent out immediately it may have changed something . . . given the Indians another force to deal with . . .
OR
It would add to the soldiers' body count.
In the end, the warriors were prepared to take on any number of soldiers coming at them. They forced Reno to halt his attack and retreat, they stopped Custer from advancing on their village and forced him back to high ground, and they stopped the Weir Advance in their tracks and forced them back to Reno Hill.
The warriors were prepared to defend their familes, they had some of the most fiercest warriors in the camp (many "hostiles" who had successfully turned back Crook a week earlier where there).
Custer hit the far end of the village which contained the Northern Cheyenne who were far more determined to protect their way of life than many of the Sioux. They were more united, aggressive, and ready to go at any soldiers who came for them. Plus Crazy Horse and his Oglalas who was closely allied with the Cheyenne was there, and between the two Custer probably faced the most experienced and fiercest warriors in the camp.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 31, 2006 16:29:43 GMT -6
Oh, you misunderstood me. I was only using D troop's time to Wier point as a time guide as to how long it would take. I said that if Benteen had 'only tipped his hat as he rode by' meaning that if he went right on (the D troop excursion wouldn't have happened) he still wouldn't have made it--because of the time factors illustrated by the D troop movement that did take place.
When Benteen first showed up on the hill Custer was already beginning to be seriously engaged.
We do not disagree on all after your 'OR'.
Jas.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 1, 2006 9:46:20 GMT -6
Much is made of the condition of the mounts in Custer's battalion and how many of the horses from C company came up lame, exhausted, or both--Peter Thompson's story comes to mind ...
My question deals with the horses with Captain Benteen and their "trot" upon receiving Custer's final message. I've learned recently that the trot is a specific conveyence used by the cavalry that does not tire horses and have read that had Benteen ordered a gallop, especially after their oblique movements, his horses would have tired out long before they could even reach Custer, rendering any aide he could muster effectively, well, ineffective.
Were the captain's orders made to save the horses for when they would be most needed or was Benteen--in an act of rampant immaturity--just tossing aside the lives of Custer's battalion because he and the Lt. Colonel didn't get along?
Regards,
Leyton McLean
Regarding the horses, that some were worn out does not indicate the condition of all the horses. A horse can travel a trot for a long period of time. More importantly the horse is more controllable at the trot than the gallop. At the gallop the horse has a tendency to get excited and needs a more experienced rider. Reno had stated that they had galloped several miles. The horses could not have been completely exhausted at the beginning.
A recent study on horses in regards to grazing indicates that graze for 20 hours a day. That only leaves four hours to sleep per day. Most days with the cavalry the horses had a least that long to rest.
As far as distances the opposite end of the spectrum from the horses that drop out early would be the maxi mun that shows up in endurance horse events. A record of 100 miles in less than 12 hours has been achieved. The horse is vet checked at the end of the event and must be in good condition and able to travel further. Without getting in to the debate of the weight carried by and endurance rider as compared to trooper this an eye opener to me.
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Post by elisabeth on Apr 2, 2006 5:01:20 GMT -6
That's really impressive. I'd guess that the breeding of an endurance horse must be a factor -- e.g. a part-mustang or an Arab might do rather better than a standard cavalry horse? (Though I seem to remember there was a spectacular endurance feat achieved by a cavalry officer on a horse from the ranks back in the early years of the 20th century, so I could be wrong on that.)
More critically for LBH, the horses had been on reduced forage for some time, plus had had little grazing (because the route of march had been cropped clean by the Indian pony herds). So quite apart from the water problem, which has already been mentioned, they were a long way from the peak fitness an endurance horse would need.
Personally, I think Benteen was acting like a sensible professional and taking his horses at the right pace to conserve their energy for battle. As Leyton says, wearing them out would have made it impossible for Benteen to help Custer, Reno, the packtrain, or anyone else. (Imagine a tank commander letting his tanks run out of gas halfway to the battle-front! Same situation. Useless, and a sitting duck for the enemy.)
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Post by alfuso on Apr 3, 2006 3:05:27 GMT -6
The trot is the horse's best gait. Because of how their legs and pasterns are made up, a horse can trot for hours and not tire. Unless it is carrying a load...
The pasterns are "springs". When the hoof hits the ground, the tendon stretches then "snaps" the hoof back so the animal is not doing a lot of work. Canter is the next best ground-eating gait. But the trot can be maintained for a long time.
Of course, if a horse had its druthers, it would amble.
alfuso
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 3, 2006 9:12:37 GMT -6
A number of horses had non-military animals. Some had purchased their own horses for personal and performance reasons. The enlisted men were stuck with whatever they got.
How much of a factor were the horses in the battle? Some . . . but not enough to turn the tide of battle. I would think Benteen's horses were more tired than the other commands . . . he was sent on a scout to the left in rough terrain and put on more miles than Reno's and Custer's, yet they were able to perform adequately.
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Post by Tricia on Apr 3, 2006 10:50:40 GMT -6
Crzhrs--
I think the horses weren't a big factor, but keeping them in fighting condition makes Benteen's thought process look even stronger ... i.e., that he wasn't "betraying" GAC from the git-go ...
Regards,
Leyton McLean
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 3, 2006 22:11:27 GMT -6
I agree with the most recent posts regarding the horses. The ability to cover ground quickly and still have some reserve is best accomplished at a trot. Some horses can travel quite fast at the trot. Other horses have to canter to keep up. Also in formation the horses at the end of a column have to canter and gallop more than trot to keep up. Could the horses have been in better shape maybe but if kept in the same camp to long the search for feed becomes a logistic nightmare. As Elisabeth pointed out quality feed was not readily available and the longer you stay in one place the worse it becomes to feed all the horses.
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