LBH Artifacts

[Rabble]

This link to the NYT shows why there were so few casings at the Battlefield - the survivors collected them and made a cannon!!

www.nytstore.com/ProdDetail.aspx?prodId=1199

Ron

[Diane Merkel]

With thanks to Rabble and apologies to The New York Times -- Who are these guys?



Caption: The last members of Gen. George Armstrong Custer's command gather for their 43rd annual reunion in September 1919. The cannon is forged from bits of brass found on the battlefield of Custer's Last Stand.

[elisabeth]

No idea-- but just guessing wildly: could it be Godfrey holding the flag? The mad moustache looks a bit like his ...

Great point, though, Ron! So much for the archaeological evidence!

Wonder if there's an account of this anywhere? It'd be great to know if the "bits of brass" were indeed casings (since the "jamming carbines" argument revolves around copper casings, does it not?) or just stray bits of accoutrements. If they were mostly casings, there could be a lot of re-thinking to be done ...

[El Crab]

Brass is at least 50% copper. So there ya go.

I was thinking the same thing about the guy holding the flag. I'm fairly certain its Godfrey. And I'd guess that Windolph and/or Martini can be counted among that group.

[shan]

Elizabeth,

Could the man next to the flag bearer--- yes, the mad moustache does look like Godfreys exaggerated idea of what suits him-- be Martini? He seems to be a small man, now why I think Martini was a small man I've no idea, maybe something I've once read, or maybe some stereotypical idea I have about the Italians. This idea of the size of some of the men who took part in the battle, is further complicated for me, by the size of the man you suggest may be Godfrey. I had never imagined him to be such a big man. Without having to go through more boooks than would fill the British library, I'm pretty sure that few if any writers have bother to fill our heads with what they would consider to be such superfluous material, { I love it, puts that added ingredient to the characters,} beyond of course, telling us what Custer had for dinner.

Shan

[fred]

Y'all--

I think you may be wrong about that fellow being Godfrey. Win Edgerly was probably the tallest man in the regiment (certainly the tallest officer) at 6' 3". The problem is, the man is wearing the Medal of Honor & I don't have any record of Edgerly ever receiving that award, while I do know that Godfrey won it. So it may be Godfrey, after all. My money would be on Edgerly if I knew he had the MH.

Also, the fellow who is 7th from the left, I believe to be Charlie Varnum (he's holding a small flag). First of all, it looks like him & secondly, the Indians called him "Pointed Face" or "Peaked Face." That looks like a pointed face to me! And Shan, I think you are correct about Martini being the 2nd from the right.

One thing I'm certain of... Custer's not among them! (That's a joke... I think.)

Best wishes,
Fred.

PS-- Oh-h... one other thing. Contrary to what some think, I am not[/b] in that picture.
FCW

[Scout]

Well the flag holder is definetly not Godfrey...much to heavy, God was a very thin man and never seemed to put any weight on. If the man of the right has a MOH he must be one of the troopers from the 'water party.' I don't recognize any of them...unfortunately, they have all gotten so old in the picture....and they all look alike....white hair and mustaches. I can't really tell much off the computer screen. Maybe I'm pixel impaired.

Richard Fox says there was no last stand because he did't find any shell casings...well, there they are....in the cannon! Wonder where that cannon is now? Would be great to locate it!

[fred]

Hey Scout--

Godfrey was awarded his Medal of Honor in 1894 for actions in the Snake Creek fight in 1877, so it doesn't have to be an EM/ water carrier at the LBH. My money is still on Edgerly. The guy's too big & I doubt the distortion is that great.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Scout]

Fred...go to the Swanson book and look at a picture of Edgerly in old age...he looks nothing like the man in the photo plus Edgerly kept his mustache very short and seemed to have kept the weight off very well in his latter years...unlike some of us. He seemed to have aged very well...plus I don't think in looks like him at all. Several other troopers did win the MOH in other battles....I was just throwing a possibility out.

[fred]

Scout--

Actually, I just skimmed through the Swanson book & I don't see a picture of Edgerly as an old man. Edgerly's mustache better fits the picture above, but the face behind it doesn't. And unless Godfrey trimmed his mustachio in later years, it ain't him, either. So... unless it was 2LT Nave or 1SG Garlick, neither of whom were at the battle... I'm still searching.

Best wishes,
Fred.

PS-- Martini was 5' 6".
FCW

[fred]

Scout--

I just did a quick scan of my notes & there were only 3 other men at the battle-- all enlisted personnel-- who were over 6' tall & survived. None of them won the MH (as best I can figure) & one of the 3 had his leg amputated there (Michael Madden). The others were James McNally (I), who was assigned to the packs, & Henry Black (H). Date of death is unknown for both of them & you would think that by 1919, that would no longer be the case, especially w/ a picture in The New York Times.

It's looking more & more like Edgerly; do you have a page number in the Swanson book?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[fred]

Here's another thing a little crazy about that photo... or at least its caption. There are 11 or 12 men seen in the photo (one appears hidden next to the big guy on the right). I started counting the men who were still alive in 1919 & I stopped at 12 when I finished Companies A & B. And that doesn't count the ones left at PRD.

Fred.

[rch]

I don't believe that the men pictured are veterans of the Little Big Horn. They may be veterans of Custer's brigade or his division. They may be members one of the "Custer Camps" of Indian War or Grand Army of the Republic veterans. I think if there had been as many as 43 reunions of Little Big Horn veterans there would be a ton of paperwork, photographs, and souvenirs of those reunions at the battlefield musuem.

Veterans organizations seem to have numbered their reunions by the number of actual reunions and not the years that passed. For instance, I made note of a reunion ribbon on sale on ebay for the 5th Mich. Cav.. There 43rd reunion was held in 1923.

I also recall at least one other picture of something called the "Custer Gun," which was about the same size and decorated around the hub in the same manner, but I don't think its history was explained.

[fred]

You know what, RCH, you may have something there. Look at the hat badges: GAR. Did all retired soldiers wear the same badge? Was it sort of like the American Legion or the AMVETS or Veterans of Foreign Wars? Or were the GAR badges reserved only for veterans of the Civil War?

If the average age of the Custer soldier was 23 at the time of the battle, that would make him 66 in 1919. By that date a 23-year old in 1865 would already be 77. The guys on the left certainly look closer to 80!

rch-- maybe you should change your moniker to "Sherlock." (Or, if you're Irish, to "Shamrock.") Nice job, my boy!

And that would clearly explain the big fellow on the right being unknown.

Best wishes,
Fred.

PS-- Then again, we've never known the NYT to make a mistake now, have we?
FCW

[El Crab]

That's entirely possible, but it would seem, on our own, many of us thought 2nd from right was Martini. I didn't mention it, as to not risk contaminating my thoughts with anyone else's. But that appears to be the consensus.