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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 14, 2013 12:38:42 GMT -6
Hi Fred, and thank you.
#1 So this is what would have greeted F Company, I wonder why the building engineers dumped all the top soil on one of the top locations in the entire field, they grade the area to take a road and have visitors come to the area and then they dump the back fill across one of the main fords to form a ridge of earth, Bouyer’s Bluff dominants the area to the left doesn’t it, rather imposing.
#2 probably looks like it did in 1876, is this the area known as the flats? I heard that F Company may have dismounted on this spot for a short while, but this info was brought to my attention by Custer Apollo so I won’t lose any sleep over it (unless he knows something we don’t).
Did you shoot these Fred? It looks like they were shot in the winter and going by the light around morning time.
Ian.
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Post by sfchemist on Sept 11, 2013 19:08:38 GMT -6
If a battle is not won by the commander before he steps onto the field, he is wasting his time. qc, I'm coming into this thread way late but your comment here seems very accurate and intuitive. I'm not a serious student of "The Art of War," and not sure if I'm being a little naive here, but your statement plus the following makes a great deal of sense to me: The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterward looks for victory.....Art of War by Sun Tzu. Wayne
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2013 19:25:19 GMT -6
Well Wayne Sunny is the guy I learned it from. It can be said a number of ways I suppose, but it always comes out to mean accept battle only on your own terms, at the time and place of your choosing, and you are assured of victory. Otherwise it is a crap shoot. There are exceptions, but they are extreme measures used only in extreme situations.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 11, 2013 19:44:48 GMT -6
Sun Tzu is quoted way too often everywhere, and reminds me of football coach inspirations and Nostrodamus: Subject to interpretation, and configured to fit a recent success after the fact.
Prepare well based on fact, do the unexpected, have ur PACE planning (insofar as a 600 BC army could) and be positive and inspiring to the men who'd be unlikely to ever see you. Be mysterious so others wonder, and fake it till you make it. Avoid unnecessary conflict. Fly right. And of course, obey the caste system in all details.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2013 20:01:14 GMT -6
Or you could lop off the heads of the first two concubines that giggled, and call it a day. Sun Tzu is often quoted because he makes sense off the battlefield as well as on.
That said I cannot dispute a word you said in your second paragraph. Preparation of the battle space is the key. Positive leadership is a must. Tell your subordinate leaders what they MUST know to carry out your orders and no more. Avoid accidental or unnecessary actions that can draw you into something you are unready for. Do the right thing even when the right thing is hard and seemingly unattainable. And yes the chain of command (the caste system) is there for a purpose. Always use it.
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Post by mac on Sept 11, 2013 21:05:57 GMT -6
While I do endorse head lopping for gigglers it does seem a waste of concubines. Mind you my concubine supply is rather low so I may be biased. cheers
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Post by quincannon on Sept 11, 2013 21:35:07 GMT -6
Ah Mac, lop off one or two heads and the concubines that remain, although they be few in number, know you are very serious about keeping your concubines in fighting trim. Although I must say that one Adelita, is the equal of ten serious concubines. Concubines have grave objections to crossed over the chest bandoliers, and they don't cook with chiles.
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Post by mac on Sept 11, 2013 23:18:12 GMT -6
Sad comment on my life is that I am more interested in their cooking than the state of the bandoliers!
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Post by herosrest on May 21, 2021 7:36:39 GMT -6
Here's Lydia. A real rebel. "Lima Bravo - Dog Four. Should we resupply blanks? Over!"
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 4, 2023 11:47:47 GMT -6
So, new guy here! I hope this is the right place to post this!
Studying the Little Big Horn battle. Everything else aside, it looks to me like Custer had only one thought on his mind. To “charge and attack” (which goes along with his Civil War thinking) the village from the North end. I think his arrival at LSH was in a retreat from an attempted crossing at Ford D (if that is the correct Ford, the one I am thinking about is the Ford at the river closest to LSH- also in 1876 I think the river would be several yards further East and closer to LSH than it is today?)
Why?
39 dead horses found on last stand hill.
40 to 50 (?) men found on last stand hill.
So, assuming some of the horses ran off at last stand hill-
All the men that arrived at last stand hill were on horseback, not on foot.
Any other soldiers that were on foot (maybe the “skirmish” line soldiers with their horses scared off and gone) and tried to retreat at Ford D to last stand hill were killed.
That may account for the 28 soldiers that were “shot down like buffaloes" in a gulch and are probably still undiscovered in a gulch or gully north of “deep ravine”. I remember reading somewhere that an archaeological dig was conducted in deep ravine to find the bodies. None were found, because like Indiana Jones stated, “they are digging in the wrong place”!
Also, from the markers at last stand hill it appears that Custer may have been wounded at the attempted Ford D crossing (the “shoulder” wound). The arrangement of markers at LSH appear to have Custer and his relatives (2 brothers and a nephew) close together maybe trying to protect him (with even another officer close by) and towards the “back” of the attack on LSH that must have been coming towards them from the river the “front” (the Native Americans riding up from Ford D) before the entire LSH was surrounded by the Native Americans.
I also read that the 28 bodies were never marked. Maybe that is because there were no officers found with them? Maybe the guys burying the dead 2 days after the battle just thought that these soldiers were in a ditch deeper than one they could dig for burial. So, they just threw some dirt on top of them. I also think the “grave diggers” were in a hurry to “get out of there” because they were uncertain if they would be attacked or not.
So, is it possible there are still maybe 28 soldiers that have not been found and buried out there somewhere?
Anyway, like I said, “new guy”. I hope I got some of this stuff right!
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 4, 2023 12:01:02 GMT -6
Welcome, lakotadan!
It's always nice to have new voices here.
You pose an interesting question about the number of burials. Perhaps someone has done an analysis and will report it here.
I hope you will keep posting. The more you participate, the better the experience.
Best wishes, Diane
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 4, 2023 12:31:59 GMT -6
Welcome! There are lots of stories and accounts of the 28 men in 'Deep Ravine' - good luck! Personally - if like 20 people say they saw 28 men in the deep gulch, located as they described it where Deep Ravine is, I tend to believe them. But trying to figure it out FOR SURE?...that's all part of the fun! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 4, 2023 12:41:39 GMT -6
Lieutenant Charles F. Roe, who was there right after the battle, and whose job it was to return to the field in 1881, rebury the bodies on the ridge and place the stone monument above them. In a letter to Walter Camp in 1911, responding to Camp’s persistent, incorrect questions about bodies in the ravine, Roe finally said: “I put up the markers near the deep ravine you speak of. There never was twenty-eight dead men in the ravine, but near the head of said ravine, and only two or three in it.” McDougal “On returning he [Reno] ordered me to bury Company E, the one I had formerly commanded for 5 years, and to identify the men as far as possible. I found most of them in a ravine. Q) Here is a ravine marked “H” on the map, state if that is the one? A) That is where the most of Company E were found to the best of my recollection - about half were in the ravine and the other half on a line outside.” Attachments:
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 4, 2023 13:06:05 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies and maps!
Yes, it is all part of the fun.
Now looking at the old map and where "H" is marked (where most of the men from company E were found). I looked at Google maps of the area. Taking into account the change in the course of the river (over 147 years, it appears on the old map to be further East than it is today) and comparing it to the old map it looks to me that what is described nowadays as "deep ravine" looks further to the right on the old map then where "H" is marked.
I don't know, just a thought.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2023 13:13:26 GMT -6
American Horse said:
Then they all rushed down below and saw Custer coming down the hill and almost to the river. I was one of the first to meet the troops, and the Indians and the soldiers reached the flat about the same time. When Custer saw them coming, he was down at the river bottom at the river's bank. The troops there fought in skirmish line, and there they fought for some little time. Then the troops gave way and the Indians followed them up the hill. The troops fell back mounted all the way up the hill. They remained mounted as long as they had their horses, but soon the Indians completely surrounded them.
The Indians following behind picked up the guns and ammunition belts of the soldiers who had been killed and they fought the troops with their own guns. Many of the belts picked up had no cartridges in them. The soldiers were shooting all the time, as fast as the Indians. The Indians kept following the troops until they got to a high point and by that time few soldiers were left. There the Indians closed in on them and in a moment all were killed. I think the fight ended at about 2 or 3 o'clock.
After we had killed those on the hill, we discovered that there were other soldiers down below who had gotten away. They were discovered downstream from the monument. The Indians charged them and killed them all. After they finished with Custer, the Indians went back to fight Reno. It was now late in the afternoon.
Ameriacan horse was a Lakota Sioux, a lot of Sioux fought Reno and many only reached LSH after the Cheyenne had stopped Custer and forced him back, so maybe he is relating after the battle tales from other warriors.
Ian
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