tw
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by tw on Aug 5, 2005 3:42:20 GMT -6
Hello,
I have a question. One of the things that wonders me is to which extent the Indians were surprised by the attack at the Little Big Horn. I have read many things about this battle and although some suggest that the Indians (or at least their "leaders") knew of Custer advancing to their village most of them suggest that the attack came as a surprise. For sure Reno's attack surprised the Indians. What even wonders me more though, is how it was possible that the Indians were not aware of the army being so close. I mean, they knew the army was out for them, they knew from Sitting Bull's vision that they would be attacked and still the Indians were, so it seems, surprised by the attack. I understand that the Indians didn't have a military organization like the US army with people who were assigned with different task according to a strict time table. But still, with so many Indians around some should have seen Custer and his men while they were out hunting or just riding a bit on horse in the area for example. And you would think that the Indians at least would have a few people guarding the area, considering they knew the army was coming for them.I would like to know what's your opinion about this. Thanks in advance.
TW
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Post by shatonska on Aug 5, 2005 8:30:46 GMT -6
completely surprised some coward oglalas who were returning to the reservation saw soldiers but did not come back to advise others tried to advise but arrived at the camp just before reno , deeds , son of hunkpapa or blackfeet chief crawler was killed while returning to the village , if sitting bull knew they were coming even black moon knew but the death of his son shows nobidy knew here you can read indians account of the battle members.fortunecity.com/gwolf2/custer.html
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 5, 2005 13:58:45 GMT -6
I read somewhere that the village was aware of Custer's approach and warriors were prepared to meet his attach. However, Reno's attack was a complete surprise and caught them off guard. So the warriors who were waiting for Custer had to hurry upstream to meet Reno's threat.
I willl try to find the source.
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Post by SCOUT7 on Aug 5, 2005 14:09:07 GMT -6
There is no doubt Custer surprised the village...remember this same village sent warriors some forty miles to intercept Crook and company. It just happened, although I think the weather played a part...remember it was in the high 90's and the Indians were not out and moving about as they normally would have been. Riding all night and then in the day heat must have spelled misery for the troopers...just another thing going against them.
Scout
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Post by shatonska on Aug 5, 2005 15:30:36 GMT -6
I read somewhere that the village was aware of Custer's approach and warriors were prepared to meet his attach. However, Reno's attack was a complete surprise and caught them off guard. So the warriors who were waiting for Custer had to hurry upstream to meet Reno's threat. I willl try to find the source. surely not possible ,, indians don't leave women and children in th village with soldiers approching , were all taken by surprise , nobody was ready , sleepng eating bathing , you can find sitting bull say something about waiting soldiers for an ambush but i don't believe he said something like that or probably told that to foolish the giournalist
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Post by El Crab on Aug 5, 2005 17:01:13 GMT -6
They were surprised. They knew the Army was in the area, but how much of that knowledge being the byproduct of finding Crook's command is unknown. Its lost in history due to the total defeat of his entire battalion, but Custer achieved surprise and was able to attack a village in broad daylight. An impressive feat, regardless of the outcome.
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Post by Cowgirl Kate on Aug 17, 2005 20:59:28 GMT -6
Around the rodeo circuit, they seem to judge impressive feats by whether you ride until the horn sounds (or sucess).
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 17, 2005 22:33:29 GMT -6
There was a scouting mission that had been sent out by one of the warrior societies. I forget which one right now. But it had about 40 to 50 warriors in it! This band was supposed to have been about 4 to 5 miles directly east of the encampment and had previously used the MTC area for it's travel. This same band or so it is supposed was returning and ran into Custer's elements that had been diverted to, or were stationed upon Nye-Cartwright ridge.
Much speculation has revolved around this element and, what if. any effect they may have had or played in Custer's decisions that day. There is some evidence to support the theory that Custer did take his whole battalion to the ford. Various elements then split, two of them, being cut off, trying to make for Calhoun Hill, the other with 3 companies returning the way they came, heading for Luce Ridge. There is some evidence to suggest that the 3 companies may have met the returning indians near this ridge, before turning north to Nye-Cartwright. But because investigations of this area have been quite limited, we may never know for sure.
Also the river was running about 3 to 4 feet deep on the average in this area. Of course we know that there was deeper parts, and shallower. But from this it wouldn't be impossible for the indians to cross almost anywhere they wanted to or needed to, outside of steep impossilbe embankments, of which there were a number! The point is that the river itself wouldn't have been an obstacle, as it is usually thought of in the usual sense. One of these area's of crossing was near a beaver dam. This dam was thought to have been about 500 to 600 yards east of the hunkpapa encampment. If this is true then quite a number of indians could have infiltrated this area early in the engagement with Reno, especially in the light that some claimed that they saw Custer's battalion on sharpshooter ridge at that time. Which by the way lies directly above this supposed site of the beaver dam. There were a few who in fact did claim that they crossed there, and went to Weir point. At which point this occured is anyone's guess. But because it is thought that Custer was there, or just below there in Cedar Coulee, for some time that this had to have occured later, perhaps on his way down MTC and after Curley and Bouyer had abandoned Weir point. One does wonder if this was the reason for their departure? Again we may never know for sure.
If the beaver dam was used as a major crossing by the indians near the end of Reno's valley fight, then one wonders if a band of indians may not have been on the ridges south above Custer's position just shortly after his arrival at the ford. This could explain alot in our efforts to solve why they apparantly abandoned their effort to cross there. I have always wondered if Crazy horse and his band didn't cross there? It certainly would have made sense, especially if they saw the other soldiers atop sharpshooter ridge earlier, heading north! It would have been the closest crossing across an apparent embankment barrier in that area.
One other thing needs to be addressed. The indian women were as the indians themselves claimed out on the "hills" across the river collecting tipsin. A kind of turnip that grows on the hills, not in the valleys! Just how many women were out there is of course unknown. But assuming that they too were caught completely by surprise. One does wonder what their reaction was and Custer's too if he indeed saw them. If there was sufficient quantity, one would assume that they did see each other! And in an indian village of that size, there probably were quite a few! The question begs itself, doesn't it? Did Custer send out men to try to capture some of these women? There is some evidence to support this. It was claimed by some of the indian scouts that a detachment of 4 soldiers was sent on ahead. For what purpose, it wasn't stated. Again we may never know. But once again the question needs to be asked. Did they capture any of these women, and if they did, what happened next?
In light of all of this Custer still went on northward. It seems like he was just as surprised by the appearance of the 40 or 50 so returning warriors as the village was of him! At some point the two clashed, where is the question?
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 17, 2005 23:09:48 GMT -6
Several other factors came to mind.
The horses for the indians were hobbled. This was so that they would be easy to catch. While most think that these indian ponies were all on the flats above and to the southeast of the village this isn't totally true. Many of the indian ponies were across the river. Two areas that I know of for sure. One was just across on the flats near the river, below Weir Point. There were indian ponies there. To protect these animals the indians surely would have tried to secure them before they were ran off by the soldiers. They were to prized for them to be left, that's for sure!!!
The other area is to the north in the vicinity of the flats below the cemetary. These areas were specifically mention by the indians as places where they had ponies. Both of these areas are controversial in that their placement is in areas where the indians would have to go in order to retrieve them. Areas that would or could, had the so chose, use as springboards for attack. The question is, did they?
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Post by michigander1 on Aug 18, 2005 6:18:57 GMT -6
They knew Custer was there but they didn't expected to be attacked in that day.
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Post by shatonska on Aug 18, 2005 6:58:47 GMT -6
for one thin soldier crazy horses passed through the village and crossed at mtc up deep coulee circling cahloun from the east and positioning east of keogh , many oglalas that were with him said that , they carried back in the village some wounded in reno fight yes in the hill east of river and in the flat below weir there were women horses and indians guarding them , ree scout stoled these horses and killed 2 wives of Gall and his children michno states the presence of these persons on the east side but of many other who were there we have no accounts , custer captured no women because when he arrived in the mtc , reno fight was still on by many minutes women and indians had already escaped to the village or gained the village when saw custer
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Post by El Crab on Aug 18, 2005 15:03:32 GMT -6
They were aware of nearby soldiers but thought Custer was Crook. And they didn't realize they were that close, otherwise they would have done the same in attacking Custer as they did on the Rosebud with Crook.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 18, 2005 16:10:42 GMT -6
The Indians knew soldiers were nearby and some say that they were watching Custer's approach and waiting for him to make a move. The real surprise was Reno's attack at the lower end of the village which disrupted the warriors' plan of attacking Custer first.
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Post by El Crab on Aug 18, 2005 21:23:42 GMT -6
The Indians knew soldiers were nearby and some say that they were watching Custer's approach and waiting for him to make a move. The real surprise was Reno's attack at the lower end of the village which disrupted the warriors' plan of attacking Custer first. I don't buy it. Many accounts speak of being surprised by Reno and then by Custer. If they knew where Custer was, why'd they go after Reno in full force? Why weren't there more warriors between Custer and the village at MTC? Or, more importantly, why were there women and children and old men in the village? Why didn't the warriors go out and meet Custer's 7th, as they did with Crook? I just can't believe they'd wait to see what Custer would do, and not at least be ready for him. The horses were not in the camp, the battalions surprised them. They didn't know about Reno's battalion, they didn't know about Benteen or the pack train. They weren't ready for Custer's battalion. And they had their families and their lodges in harm's way.
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Post by shatonska on Aug 19, 2005 7:48:55 GMT -6
The Indians knew soldiers were nearby and some say that they were watching Custer's approach and waiting for him to make a move. The real surprise was Reno's attack at the lower end of the village which disrupted the warriors' plan of attacking Custer first. I don't buy it. Many accounts speak of being surprised by Reno and then by Custer. If they knew where Custer was, why'd they go after Reno in full force? Why weren't there more warriors between Custer and the village at MTC? Or, more importantly, why were there women and children and old men in the village? Why didn't the warriors go out and meet Custer's 7th, as they did with Crook? I just can't believe they'd wait to see what Custer would do, and not at least be ready for him. The horses were not in the camp, the battalions surprised them. They didn't know about Reno's battalion, they didn't know about Benteen or the pack train. They weren't ready for Custer's battalion. And they had their families and their lodges in harm's way. it makes sense , we must always remember that one indian account refers only to himself , there were indians east that saw custer many minutes before he was engaged and these indians wait to see what Custer would do ( wholf thoot account ecplain this ) so indians east of river knew nothing of reno , indians west of river knew nothing of custer you have different accounts on the base of whose indian said that , many knew there were soldiers around but custer speed surprised the village
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