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Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 6, 2004 11:53:44 GMT -6
I received the following question from a website visitor. If you can answer his question, please reply to this post. Thank you in advance!
"I would like to know what kind of rifles the Indians were using at Little Big Horn. Thank you for your answer."
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Post by shatonska on Sept 24, 2004 9:00:15 GMT -6
i have read the article , and once more it's asked where did the indians found or bought their guns , it is so easy that i ask myself why do people don't use their brain , from custer discovery of gold in the black hills , hundreds of miners where killed by indians , it is so easy to realize that indians took their guns , guns of every type good middle 70ies guns !
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Post by MontanaKid on Sept 24, 2004 13:26:27 GMT -6
Certainly some rifles may have been taken from slain whites, but these would be but a handlful. Most weapons were readily available through traders.
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Jimbo
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Post by Jimbo on Apr 25, 2005 0:38:27 GMT -6
Please get a copy of Dec. '86 National geographic and read "Ghosts On The Little Big Horn". This topic is covered very well. IN 1983 a prairie fire burned off the grass & underbrush of 600 acres and proved to be a blessing in disguise. Afterwards,several archeologists scanned the area with metal detectors, finding many artifax (4000 or so) including many various spent cartridge cases of various calibers & makers, in Indian positions, indicating that the Indians had some 42 various types of weapons that fired different types of cartridges, here to fore unknown. Some of these weapons included Repeating Henry rifles, Winchester repeating rifle model 1866, model 1873, possibly Spencer repeating Carbines, Springfield rifles & carbines, models 1868, 1870 (50-70 cal) model 1873, (45-70 cal cal). Remember, after the Cheyenne finished off Custer & his Co., they looted them of their arms and ammunition (Springfield carbines (45-70) & Colt model 1873 revolvers, (45 long Colt cal. ) and returned back to Reno's position on the bluff to try to finish off Reno's outfit, shooting at the calvarymen with their own weapons. Indians also used Cap & ball (percussion type rifles & pistols, some pre civil war , some civil war models). A model 1860 Remington cal. 44 cap & ball was dug up at the battlefield, among others. They also used Kentucky style percussion rifles too. A big collection of Indian rifles are on display at the Rock Island Arsenal. Miniconjou warrior Red horse at the Cheyenne river Agency in Dakota Territory in 1881 did many pictorials in colored pencils illustrating battle scenes as he remembered them (41 in all) depicting soldiers & Indians fighting ( many Indians depicted are shown carrying Winchester model 1866 44 rim fire cal. carbines). He used a yellow pencil to color in the frames of the Winchester because they were made of brass. The Indians preferred weapon at the time, they called them "yellow boys" All of this info & much more is in that Nat. Geographic issue, including some of the Indian drawings. this is a very excellent analytical, scientific study of the Custer Battle. If any other questions regarding this topic, I will be very happy to try to inform you to the best of my limited knowledge. this info I have stated here is just a summary of the article. They also found the remains of a soldier that all the burial details had missed over the years in the area above the greasy grass ridge. He had been shot twice and his skull had been crushed, but all the rest of his skeletal remains were still there and one of his legs still had the remnants of a cavalry boot on his foot. Hope this helps.....
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Jimbo
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Post by Jimbo on Jan 9, 2006 21:53:18 GMT -6
An excellent new publication covering most weapons used at LBH and other battles is: Guns of the Western Indian War by R. Stephan Dorsey published by Collector's Library, PO Box 263, Eugene, Oregon 97440. The first chapter is titled "Guns of the Hostiles" with many photos featuring Indian guns that were either captured or turned in by the Indians when they most all of them surrendered and turned over their firearms to the US Army in the late 1870's, the last batch of them surrendered in 1879, all except the Apaches. These are featured in photos in this book. Many of the Warriors "demilled " their weapons (disabled them by various means to make them inoperable by removing hammers, firing pins, etc.) so that the white eyes wouldn't use them against their fellow tribemen later. This is very obvious by examining the photos. I had the opportunity to actually inspect some actual Indian war firearms used by the cavalry, infantry and hostiles. One that I inspected was an authentic Civil war period .56 cal. Spencer Carbine with brass tacks embedded in it. As usual it was very worn with a weathered stock, rather beat up as is normal for plains Indian guns. It was mfg'd. in about 1865, seeing late Civil War use and went west afterwards as they were issued to the cavalry. Custer's troopers were armed with these repeaters during pre LBH clashes that the 7th had with Cheyenne, Sioux, Arapaho, Kiowa, etc. such as his raid on Black Kettle's village on the Washita in 1868 or so. Many indians captured their weapons from dead calvary and Infantry troopers that they killed after skirmishes, etc. They also got their ammo not only from gunrunners and homesteaders, miners, but also ambushed supply pack wagons ( if it had a smaller number of troopers escorting and guarding the pack wagons) that were en route to forts such as Fort Fetterman, Fort Abraham Lincoln, etc. where Custer's outfit was stationed. By 1873 the new single shot 45-70 trapdoor Springfield was issued to the troopers & the repeating Spencers were retired and turned in to ordnance ( they were considered wasteful of ammunition and had too short of a range), although very adequate for most battlefield engagements, in my opinion, as they were very effective in stopping Confederate cavalry charges by Jeb Stuart and others, killing & wounding many rebels. The 50 cal.Springfields were authentic Indian War period pieces being Mfg'd in 1868 through 1872. One had a "19" stamped on the butt, which I think indicated the infantry co. that it was issued to. In this case; the 19 infantry Co. possibly carried by some troopers under General Terry's command in the Little Bighorn region. I know that the 20th infantry traveled with Terry's command & others which may have included the 19th. Some Springfield rifles were issued to Cavalry units as well as carbines. It was a real thrill to me to actually hold these rifles, all mfg'd. before 1876, and imagine that they could have been used during "the Big One" with Custer,Crazy Horse & Gall........
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Post by stevewilk on Jan 9, 2006 22:39:39 GMT -6
Jimbo; for the record the Nineteenth Infantry was not with Terry and did not partake in the Sioux War. This regiment was posted to the south (Louisiana, Arkansas) until 1874 when it was transferred to the Dept. of the Missouri. Its HQ was at Ft. Lyon, Colorado, and its companies dispersed among the posts in Kansas and Indian Territory.
Interesting to note that the first Colonel of the 19th, though he never exercised field command, was E. R. S. Canby, who later was assassinated by Captain Jack during the Modoc War of 1873.
The Nineteenth lost its Lt. Colonel, William Lewis, at Punished Woman's fork against the Cheyennes during the 1878 outbreak. Canby was the only regular army general to be killed by Indians. Lewis, Custer, and Major Thomas Thornburgh, 4th Infantry, were the only regular field grade officers killed by Indians in the post war west.
The "19" on the weapon you inspected: maybe it's just the number of the weapon?
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Post by fred on Jan 10, 2006 4:47:25 GMT -6
Colt .36-caliber Forehand & Wadsworth .32-caliber Sharps .40-caliber S&W .44-caliber Evans .44-caliber Henry .44-caliber Winchester Model 1873 .44-caliber Colt conversion .44-caliber Colt Model 1860 .44-caliber Colt Model 1871 .44-caliber Remington Model 1858 .44-caliber Remington Model 1858 conversion .44-caliber Ballard .44-caliber Colt model 1873 pistol .45-caliber (army issue) Springfield Model 1873 carbine .45-caliber (army issue) Sharps .45-caliber Sharps .50-caliber Maynard .50-caliber Springfield .50-caliber Starr .54-caliber Spencer .56/ 56 Spencer .56/ 50 Enfield .577-caliber other unknown .40-, .44-, .45-, & .50-caliber weapons unknown shotgun
Thank you, Richard Allan Fox... oh, & thank you, fred, for reading the question.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 10, 2006 16:11:08 GMT -6
So from the accounts of weapons used by the Indians can we say they were better armed than the soldiers?
Did they have enough ammunition to randomly fire and were their cartridges (I would assume self-loaded) fully loaded with powder? Did they also mix up cartridges for different firearms?
If I remember correctly most soldier deaths were not attributed to firearms but a wide variety of wounds, including arrows, clubs, knifes, etc.
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Post by shatonska on Jan 10, 2006 16:56:23 GMT -6
So from the accounts of weapons used by the Indians can we say they were better armed than the soldiers? Did they have enough ammunition to randomly fire and were their cartridges (I would assume self-loaded) fully loaded with powder? Did they also mix up cartridges for different firearms? If I remember correctly most soldier deaths were not attributed to firearms but a wide variety of wounds, including arrows, clubs, knifes, etc. surely fireamrs played a big role , difference from disaster to survival is tiny just consider the bloody knife incident , oglala said Crazy Horse in his folloers just arrived sent a volley in the wood , Reno soon after that left the wood , no fireamrs no bloody knife death and possibly no Reno's escape , everything could change according to warriors accounts the course of action on custer battleflield was not influenced by fireamrs , anyway escaping soldiers were brought down by fireamrs
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Jimbo
New Member
Posts: 38
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Post by Jimbo on Jan 10, 2006 22:40:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the info on the 19th infantry., very informative. It is very plusable that that no. 19 is the no. of that individual rifle, a "rack I. D.no.," so to speak. It may also be regimental no. If it is an identifying no. for that rifle, it could possibly still be one that saw Indian war service, possibly the 20th or other companies, hard to say about the provenance of this piece. Most of them along with the improved model, the 1870, were in great demand for Indian war use and most saw service.This model 1866, 1868 & 1870 Springfield was in great demand right after the Civil war for the Indian campaigns ,since it was such a great improvement over the muzzle loading Springfields at the time. Before the breech loaders came out, Red cloud would send in a band of warriors to attack the trooper's skirmish line which would draw the fire of the soldier's and then immediately send another wave in before the troopers had time to reload their muzzle loaders. The new breech loading rapid firing single shot cartridge gun made Red Cloud's battle tactics obsolete. The model 1866 was responsible for the troopers victories over Red Cloud's warriors at the Wagon box and the Hayfield Battle. Evidently these particular troopers were not armed with the Spencer repeating carbine at that time. Learning this the Indians then had to try to acquire more modern repeating rifles through various means to match the firepower of the cavalry and infantry, discussed earlier. Another example of the of the White man's ability to produce proficient weapons is the Spencer carbine which was employed by the troopers at the battle of Beecher's Island that prevented the attacking Hostiles from overunning their positions and defeating them. Custer's trooper's also used them at the Battle of the Washita. . In Mr. Dorsey's book, a well documented 1870 Springfield is pictured that was in the possession of an Indian that bears all the earmarks of Indian usage with the usual cut down barrel length, gunsight improvisements, and wear characteristics, especially the wear under the bottom of the stock where it rested on the saddle pommel. After the model 1873 Springfield 45-70 came out, the models 1866,1868 & 1870's in 50 cal. were retired from service & through various means, some wound up in the hostile's hands. I am inclined to believe that some 50 cal. Springfields were employed by the hostiles at the LBH battlefield since park service relic hunters have dug up empty 45- 70 cases and some that were split down the sides, indicating that they were fired in larger chambers that were designed for 50 cal. chambers of the obsolete Springfields and Possibly Sharps rifles as well. This is a topic subject to a lot of speculation.
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Post by markland on Jan 11, 2006 12:22:04 GMT -6
This is some stuff I found and had posted on another board early last year that may be helpful.
Billy
"I found this, to me, fascinating report in Ordnance Notes for 1879 but since it deals with LBH matters and the Army vs. Indian arms question, I still consider it relevant. The same Ordnance Notes also goes into detail about other weapons captured from or turned in by Sioux and Cheyenne which I will deal with later.
Billy
[Transcriber's Note: All italics were in the original.]
Ordnance Notes No. 115 October 1, 1879 American Executive Papers W3411-4.5.115 p. 171-172 Combat Arms Research Library Ft. Leavenworth, KS
Headquarters Department of Dakota Office Chief Ordnance Officer St. Paul, Minn., January 22, 1879.
To the Adjutant General, Department of Dakota.
Sir: I have the honor to submit, for the consideration of the Department Commander, the following report, in connection with eight guns received from the District of the Yellowstone, under the following instructions:
“Ordnance Office “War Department “Washington, October 10, 1878.
“The Chief Ordnance Officer, Military Division of the Missouri, Chicago, Illinois.
“Sir: At various times during the last few years, complaints have been made that the service carbine was inferior in range and accuracy to the arms commonly used by the hostile Indians, and within the last few days the fact has been stated, that, such an opinion was prevalent in the cavalry troops now operating in the Departments of the Missouri and Platte. The Chief of Ordnance wishes to examine thoroughly into this subject, and to that end requests you to procure a sample of the best arms the Indians are known to use, if possible one that has been used by them, and a small quantity of ammunition.
“If you succeed in getting an arm that you are satisfied can be considered a fair sample of the best in use, of course excluding any of the United States service arms that may be in their possession, taken from our troops or otherwise procured, he desires you to send it to this office for examination and comparison.
“Respectfully, your obedient servant, “S. C. Lyford, “Major of Ordnance.
[first endorsement excluded]
”Copy to Colonel Miles, October 17, 1878, (from Headquarters Department of Dakota,) who will send to the Chief Ordnance officer at these headquarters all arms captured from the Bannocks, and samples of the ammunition that may be in his possession, which have been captured from Indians, which in his opinion are deemed fair samples of the best in use by the Indians.
“Referred to Chief Ordnance Officer, Department of Dakota, December 16, 1878.
CLASSIFICATION OF THESE ARMS
1. A muzzle-loading squirrel rifle, octagonal barrel, made in Columbus, Ohio, by Seibert; caliber .44. 2. A Sharp’s rifle, percussion lock; short barrel; ante bellum model 3. A Sharp’s carbine, altered lock; caliber .50 4. A Joslyn carbine, caliber .50. 5. A Spencer carbine, model of 1861. 6. A Sharp’s rifle, Government model; caliber .50. 7. A Sharp’s rifle, short octagonal barrel; caliber .44. 8. A Sharp’s rifle, long octagonal barrel; caliber .44.
Nos. 6, 7, and 8 are the only pieces deserving of further mention.
The Sharp’s rifle, caliber .50, was fairly tried in the field in comparison with the Springfield musket, caliber .50, and could not hold its own.
Nos. 7 and 8 are Sharp’s rifles of a well-known type, with set triggers, originally furnished with peep-sights, and judging from the numbers, were manufactured about the same time.
I am of the opinion that the barrel of No. 7, which is lighter than that of No. 8, has been shortened.
The fine sights of these guns, upon which their shooting at long range is supposed to depend, have been removed: very coarse front sights, and old model carbine rear sights, altered to buck-horn, have been substituted in an unworkmanlike manner.
These arms are forwarded by General Miles, as a representative of the armament of Indians, and I presume must be accepted as such, with two limitations, - the absence of Springfield arms, excluded under the order, and of Henry (Winchester) rifles, both of which are used whenever they can be obtained.
In connection with his Nez Percès engagement, speaking of it and his adversaries, General Miles says: “They have all the enterprise and cunning of wild Indians, and many of the arts of civilized warfare. They are the best marksmen I have ever met, and understand the use of improved sights and the measurements of distances; they were principally armed with Sharp’s, Springfield, and Henry rifles, and used explosive bullets.”
The sample Nez Percès Sharp’s rifle (No. 2) has a set trigger, percussion lock, and peep sight without scale. It certainly cannot be claimed that this gun is comparable with the present Government arm, and it is an accepted fact that our standard caliber outranges the repeating gun. It follows, therefore, from General Miles’ report, that the best gun of the best Indian marksmen he ever met, so far as range is concerned, was the Springfield rifle.
During my tour of service in this Department I have never met an officer, either in the field or at posts, and of course as an Ordnance officer I took especial pains to inform myself, who claimed that the Indians, as a class, had longer ranging guns than our own troops.
As General Miles states of the Nez Percès, the use of fine sights and the measurement of distances is the result of civilization. The typical Indian is a point-blank marksman. The use of bright muzzle and buckhorn sights proves this. He steals upon his quarry and fires at it. Hence they prefer arms with long dangerous spaces, an attribute that overcomes the difficulty attending fine sighting and the accurate estimation of distances.
The scouts at Fort Keogh were armed with Sharp’s guns, caliber .50, but for this very reason, as I believe, without knowing it, they asked for the Springfield, caliber .45.
It seems to me that there is a periodicity in the claims and rumors concerning the arms of Indians.
In 1876, after the battle of the Little Big Horn, the newspapers were filled with descriptions of the “pumping” guns of the Indians, and requisitions were made for repeating rifles – arms that certainly could not compete with our caliber .45 Springfield rifle or carbine.
An officer of the Seventh Cavalry has informed me that he saw Indians on the banks of the Little Big Horn “pump” shots into our troops, struggling up the opposite bank, at a range of fifty yards.
Concerning the two close fights that have taken place in this department since – the Big Hole and Snake River – I have never heard it claimed that the Indians had longer range guns than our own troops.
Now, when there have been no close engagements, a lieutenant-colonel of cavalry writes to a United States Senator: “The Indian tribes on our frontiers have excellent arms, and many of our officers and soldiers believe their range is greater than the arms used by us.”
Thoughtful and experienced captains of infantry have recommended that one leaf-sight be abolished and the buckhorn substituted, for the reason that our soldiers as a class were not reliable marksmen beyond point-blank range.
In the hands of good shots our gun has always proved satisfactory. I have seen Captain D. W. Benham, of the Seventh Infantry, now on the Equipment Board in Washington, hit a tree-stump three times in five shots, standing and firing from the shoulder without muzzle rest, at a distance of 1,000 yards, with caliber .45 Springfield rifle taken at haphazard from his company rack. On the Yellowstone, in 1876, General Terry, at a range of 400 yards, with a similar arm outshot both the Sharp’s Creedmore and Winchester guns. General Crook carried a Springfield caliber .45 rifle in the campaign of 1876, and General Gibbon always uses one, hunting and fighting, with buckhorn sight and set trigger, modifications that may affect the accuracy but not the range of the weapon. Reynolds, the guide, who was killed on the Little Big Horn, the best shot in Dakota, carried a Government gun. Captain Ball, of the Second, and Captain Benteen, of the Seventh Cavalry, certainly representative company commanders, have both very recently officially reported that they were satisfied with the standard carbine. The same lieutenant-colonel already referred to, in an official communication of about the same date as his letter to the Senator, writes as follows of the rifle:
“The rifle, owing to its length and weight, cannot be used by a man mounted. Then, again, its length and weight make it too cumbrous and inconvenient. It cannot be carried attached to a sling-belt slung across the back; it is inaccessible, and causes delay in mounting, dismounting, and getting into action. Again, if slung on the pommel of the saddle, it being badly balanced, would soon give the animals sore withers and backs, besides spreading the column greatly.”
So far as this officer’s opinion is concerned, the plan of arming cavalry with rifles is effectually disposed of.
Our carbines can safely use our 70-grain cartridge, and no carbine of equal weight could use a heavier charge without great danger and intolerable recoil. Complaints have already been made in regard to the severity of the recoil of our present arms using the standard cartridge. What, then would be the result were we to increase the charge without augmenting the weight?
The longest-ranging Indian arm I have seen is the octagonal barreled Sharp’s rifle, a piece manifestly too heavy to be used as a military gun. If weight is not objected to, an arm can be made at the National Armory that will outrange any gun yet tried. Our rifle at 1,650 yards, using the service ammunition, will penetrate two inches of pine and therefore kill. Is not this enough for all military purposes? If we attempt to accomplish more than this without increasing the weight of the piece the recoil becomes impracticable. Our arms can now kill an enemy as soon as he becomes distinctly visible to the eye, provided he is hit. And it is just in this inability to hit that the true source of all dissatisfaction with our standard arms as military weapons is to be found. Our soldiers as a class are not skillful marksmen.
The disjointed system we call “target practice,” so far as my observation goes, does very little good in improving our men. I know of one regiment of cavalry where no so-called “target practice” has taken place for a year past. I do not mean to be understood that this was owing to any neglect; it was probably due to the varied duties the men were called upon to perform. Still, the fact remains that while the companies were in garrison nothing was done to improve individual marksmanship.
Where target practice does occur, men fire at known ranges of 100 and 200 yards. This is really an aiming and firing drill, a relic of the military epoch where heavy line firing at known intervals was the custom.
Our fighting now is extended skirmishing, and men should be taught what I deem the most important attribute of a military marksman, the just estimation of distances. This, our present practice, founded, I believe, upon the Wimbledon system, does not do.
Wimbledon, or our Creedmore, produces fine dilettanti shots, men who at extraordinary known ranges, by assuming positions impracticable, from a military standpoint, can make any number of successive bull’s-eyes. This, however, is not military practice. Our soldiers should be taught to shoot as Captain Benham does, - to estimate correctly the distance of the object, and to hit it by fair shooting from the shoulder.
As I have repeatedly recommended, we need a thorough system of target practice. Men should be taught the relative sizes of objects , apt to be seen in the field, at varying distances: the Le Boulenge field and musket telemeters, and no simpler distance measurer can be desired, should be generally introduced.
If this be done, and the target allowance be honestly expended in target practice, our men will become good shots, and these periodically recurring animadversions upon the “shooting” qualities of our arms will cease.
I include a communication from Lieut. J. W. Pope, 5th Infantry, Acting Ordnance Officer in charge of the Tongue River Depot, upon the subject of Indian armament, to which I invite especial attention.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
O. E. Michaelis Captain of Ordnance Chief Ordnance Officer
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