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Post by mwkeogh on Oct 10, 2007 22:00:04 GMT -6
I am a member of the CBPC but I never get any info concerning what is being proposed for the land they (including me) are supposed to own. I was at the LBH with Jim Court in 2000 and got to the 'old' Crow's Nest, Weir Peaks and part of Reno Creek and again in 2006, when the CN was fenced off, but I got on to Weir Peaks again, also to the Ford D area and the eastern slopes of Battle Ridge, Keogh Swale and Calhoun Hill. Both times, extreme care was taken not to wander about like unthinking tourists and I cannot see why the NPS could not take up Fred's idea of guided tours for real enthusiasts on that basis. One thing that I do remember from both trips, is that the most obstruction apparently came from white ranchers and not the Crow tribal members. Good point about the white ranchers, Hunk papa. The Davis Creek ranch is the one who first put up the fence across the road to Crows Nest. They were quite hostile to those who wished to cross thru their property. They were in the reenactment business a number of years back and they were strictly in it as a profit making enterprise, so I suspect that might be part of their motive here as well. The Crows own much of the land on the other end, and if they have a fence across the road, it is more likely due to keeping their cattle and horses contained rather than an effort to squeeze the tourists. I half suspect that a number of the local tour guides might even be encouraging the locals to fence off the access routes and perhaps refuse permission to cross in order to force the rest of those interested explorers to hire them....after all, how can you make a buck as a tourist guide if any Tom, Dick or Harry can go up there by themselves? It would serve their interests in the long run to foster the impression that all the land owners are waiting for trespassers behind the nearest bush with a shotgun filled with rocksalt.
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Post by Melani on Oct 10, 2007 22:39:14 GMT -6
Well, gee, I suppose they could make a buck as tour guides by offering good interpretive service and advertising it--provided, of course, they could manage to present anything like an historically accurate account. I'm afraid I don't have a lot of faith in some of the locals on that point. And on several occasions when I drove from Custer Hill to Reno Hill, there were horses standing in the middle of the road and drivers who had gotten out of their cars to try to remove them.
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Post by Treasuredude on Oct 10, 2007 22:49:20 GMT -6
I was told that I was required to wear high-topped boots because of the snakes. Yikes! I just looked back at some photos we took at Keogh sector this past summer. Fred was the only one wearing long pants. The rest of us were wearing shorts and tennis shoes.
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Post by gocav76 on Oct 10, 2007 22:57:51 GMT -6
Treasuredude, You guys are some brave fellows! I'd be wearing knee high boots!
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Post by BrokenSword on Oct 11, 2007 5:24:38 GMT -6
Great thoughts/points all the way around.
The issue boils down to two basics for the rangers - Protect the Park from the tourists (who have a right to be there and see it) and protect the tourists from themselves (and from the snakes, who have the right to be there too).
M
Ah! The joys of Nature! Strolling merrily through the countryside. Becoming one with the land, experiencing the wonders of the wilderness - where almost everything is looking on you as its next lunch.
"OH! Look Harvey!! Cute little bear cubs. Let's go take a picture of me petting them!!!"
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Post by fred on Oct 11, 2007 7:39:14 GMT -6
Melani--
You can thank Frank Bodden-- "bubbabod"-- for that sign about Reynolds, Bloody Knife, and McIntosh. When we got back home, Frank raised some hell-- I think on another forum-- and it was immediately addressed by the fellows at the park. At first-- I may be wrong a bit here, so please, no offense intended to anyone-- they/he jumped down Frank's throat, but then relented and were extremely nice about it, saying they intended to make the change. I guess they did.
The Davis Creek area is privately owned. I met one of the owners-- his name escapes me-- and he was extremely nice (he's the local tax accountant in Hardin as well). I'm sure there are others. If I remember correctly, there were at least 3 gates across the trail going up the valley.
I have absolutely no problem with good tour guides and I have no problem in paying for what I want to see. Having been around for a while, watching American tourists in Paris in the 1960s, seeing tourists at Gettysburg, living in Europe for more than 3 years-- once-- and another year-- once-- I have had my fill of the average tourist. I believe Melani to be absolutely spot on with the trails being cut through, the trash being strewn about, and I would rather have the LBH the way it is than opened wide up to everyone. I do, however, like the idea of private, paid tours, even ones that would be conducted by the NPS over NPS land. My friends and I were fortunate enough to be there when the Keogh Sector trail was open and it turned out to be very important to all of us to have been able to go down there. It gave us tremendous perspective regarding what went on in that area. It was the same thing for the SSL.
One interesting little fact. When we were there, the park was loaded with people. There were 6 of us, plus Richard Fox. We saw only 2 other people-- a father and son-- make the trek all the way down to the near-head of Deep Ravine during the time we were there (maybe 3 hours).
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Oct 11, 2007 11:13:12 GMT -6
The casual tourists is not going to trek around the LBH, they will stay on the main road, get out of their vehicles and take a photo or two, then get back into the air conditioned vehicle and drive off.
LBH buffs, however, will spend an entire day, if not longer, roaming all parts of the battlefield (if allowed) take the steep trails, poke around, look here, there, & everywhere.
When I was there I arrived at opening time and left at closing . . . and still it was not enough time. At that time the site was clean with little trash. It was during mid-week so the crowd was not bad and may have had something to do with less litter.
Of course that was many years ago and I'm assuming crowds have increased along with all the congestion and trash.
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Post by Melani on Oct 11, 2007 16:09:48 GMT -6
I didn't notice any major trash problem when I was there, and it certainly was the busiest time of the year, the anniversary. Most of the tourists, as crazy observed, stay on the main drag and don't trek all over. The parking lot and cemetary area are great places for a picnic lunch, with restrooms, water and plenty of trash cans, and a nice air-conditioned visitor center. The trash accumulated around the cans when they got full, but I don't recall much or any on the trails.
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Post by mwkeogh on Oct 11, 2007 16:10:17 GMT -6
The casual tourists is not going to trek around the LBH, they will stay on the main road, get out of their vehicles and take a photo or two, then get back into the air conditioned vehicle and drive off. LBH buffs, however, will spend an entire day, if not longer, roaming all parts of the battlefield (if allowed) take the steep trails, poke around, look here, there, & everywhere. When I was there I arrived at opening time and left at closing . . . and still it was not enough time. At that time the site was clean with little trash. It was during mid-week so the crowd was not bad and may have had something to do with less litter. Of course that was many years ago and I'm assuming crowds have increased along with all the congestion and trash. Must agree with you on this horse. 90% of the tourists will remain on the trails or the road and rarely leave their vehicle at all. For many many years the Custer Battlefield was open to the public without people being harrassed by Big Brother (for their own good, of course!) Not many people got bitten by snakes in the old days, but hey, I guess it makes for a nice tale to keep the pesky tourist on the paths.... I don't mind if the park service organizes tours throughout the day, but I would be against them charging extra for it. The general public has already paid for these tours with their extremely high entrance fees, which are not levied to access most other national monuments. Thanks to Neil Mangum, he had the audacity to raise the admission even higher during his term and its not yet been scaled back to where it belongs.
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Post by mwkeogh on Oct 11, 2007 16:44:21 GMT -6
Melani-- You can thank Frank Bodden-- "bubbabod"-- for that sign about Reynolds, Bloody Knife, and McIntosh. When we got back home, Frank raised some hell-- I think on another forum-- and it was immediately addressed by the fellows at the park. At first-- I may be wrong a bit here, so please, no offense intended to anyone-- they/he jumped down Frank's throat, but then relented and were extremely nice about it, saying they intended to make the change. I guess they did. Good job Frank! That would be Greg Pattison. He was one of the first to put up a fence to deny access to the public to the Crows Nest. He ran a camp at his property for many years charging tourists a huge sum of money to become a reenactor for a week and participate in the Hardin Pageant of Custer's Last Stand. He can be very nice if you know the right people, but I believe a good deal of his motivation is centered around making a profit off the tourists interested in access to the Crows Nest. The other two gates across the trail going up Davis Creek are not for keeping the tourists away, but for keeping livestock in, unless things have changed a great deal over the the last few years since I've been up there. I hear you Fred, but really, the average tourist has no interest in going off the beaten trail to explore every nook and cranny of this battlefield. Its only obsessed history addicts like ourselves who would be found wandering about rattlesnake country in our shorts to try to figure out why a skirmish line would be set up in some forsaken spot on the field a half mile from the road. The park service has enough money paid to them from the gate to run more extensive tours for those interested in them. There is no need, imo, to soak the tourists any more than they already have. I also have no problem with hiring a private tour guide. My only beef with them is that ever since they started up with these private tours, all of a sudden all the access routes to the Crows Nest, Davis Creek and Ash Creek are now "off-limits" to all but these tour guides! Coincidence? I think not. I think its another one of those damn conspiracies.....just lump me in with Wesley Merritt on this one.
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Post by BrokenSword on Oct 11, 2007 17:50:36 GMT -6
All in all, I'm with Fred. Rather see access restricted than open to the potential damage of careless disregard.
Did I read somewhere that the 'Large Sage' (that the warriors hid behind) will take about two-hundred years to fully recover from the brush fire in the mid-1980s? Deceptively fragile lands.
M
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Post by fred on Oct 11, 2007 18:12:12 GMT -6
Did I read somewhere that the 'Large Sage' (that the warriors hid behind) will take about two-hundred years to fully recover from the brush fire in the mid-1980s? That explains a lot. Very interesting. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by BrokenSword on Oct 11, 2007 19:49:42 GMT -6
For those who are interested, I pass on the following link. www.littlebighorn.info/Articles/LIBIFinalReport.pdfFred- Page #27 para. #3 addresses the issue of the Big Sage loss at the Battlefield. 35 to 200 years for recovery- longer than I will live to see it again. M
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Post by Melani on Oct 12, 2007 13:19:42 GMT -6
Actually, $10 per vehicle and $5 per pedestrian is right in line with other parks--though I believe Yosemite is up to $20 per vehicle, last time I was there. Our park has the deal of the century--$5 per pedestrian (that's all we have--no cars allowed), kids under 16 free, and it's good for a week. One way they could handle Park Service-run tours would be to take advance reservations, so when some bunch of battle geeks were planning a trip, they could set it up. Or they could run the tours on certain dates--that's what we do with our recently-instituted scow schooner rides. We charge $35 per ticket for that, which is the going rate for boat rides on SF Bay. For that you get "a three-hour tour"--but so far, they've all come back without being marooned. There is a Park Service mandate that they can't undercut locals who are in the same business--we just had to go through contortions over that when we set up our boat rides. I agree that most of the tourists would not be interested in such extensive investigation, but a few might.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 12, 2007 15:12:41 GMT -6
Presumably at the LBH the cost of pivate tours on private land would be governed by just how greedy the land owners would get. In 2006, on my trip with Jim Court, when we got to where the rancher had fenced off the Crow's Nest, there was no mention whatsoever about that rancher wanting to charge for crossing his land. Perhaps Jim had asked and found the fee too high or he was not on that rancher's favoured list. It is indicative however, of the problems that will be faced if enthusiasts want to venture on to private land, even on guided tours, although the CBHMA seem to overcome the problem on their annual tours.
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