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Post by tubman13 on Sept 8, 2022 14:41:03 GMT -6
Thank you Col., good to have you back.
Regards, Tom
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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 8, 2022 20:16:30 GMT -6
There are two ways LTC Custer could have had the 4 additional companies. 1. First, he could have followed his own orders and supported the regimental attack in the LBH valley. This would let the main body support the advance guard when 900 Indians attacked along Reno's open flank to get Behind the Reno element cutting them off from Ford A. The regiment (-) would still have to retreat, falling back to Ford A, and allowing the rest of the regiment to consolidate at or behind Ford A. 2. Second, LTC Custer could wait until the trailing elements caught up, before launching his attack. On the bluffs he could clearly see the Indian attack surround and defeat the Reno element. He would have been in position to link up and support the Reno element when it reached the bluffs, then retreat towards the regiment and fight a defensive battle in Reno creek. 3. His decision was to abandon Reno and leave Benteen and McDougal behind. It is not an accident that he left 7 companies behind, it is a decision. 4. The other board assumes the Starship Enterprise is in orbit and teleports the trailing 7 companies forward, because they have no concept of time or space. Benteen and McDougal were where they were, when they were as a consequence of the orders they were given by LTC Custer. Their arrival times were completely predictable, especially since LTC Custer had just traveled this route and had perfect knowledge of when trailing units would catch up, By traveling the rough terrain on the bluffs vice the much easier route in the valley, add another 2 hours for the train to reach Battle Ridge. Fred Wagner went into vast detail on this topic in his book, recommend you read it. The additional 4 companies was in ref to the proposed 2nd Cav offer. However your alternative options regarding the consolidation of Custer's own regiment make perfect sense. I didn't know that Custer was aware of Reno's retreat. For me, that puts a whole new complexion on Custer's decision making. cheers Francis PS What is the title of Fred's book?
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Post by montrose on Sept 8, 2022 21:27:22 GMT -6
My bad. But LTC Custer didn't use 4 companies he had with him do to poor command and control ability, knowledge and skill. He would have just scattered more companies across the prairie out of mutual support of one another. And anyone who knows GAC is aware that the non regiment companies would have the pack train and any crap detail.
Fred's book is "Strategy of Defeat". I believe I ordered mine on Amazon. However, Fred is a poster on these boards. Many of his threads on this board was him developing and sounding out his views contained in the book.
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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 9, 2022 0:24:37 GMT -6
Does anyone have the e-book version? Is it as good as the actual book? I've seen e-books for around $25. Most affordable book I've seen on Amazon is $80 AUD. (with 6 week delivery)
cheers
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 9, 2022 3:32:17 GMT -6
The e-book is excellent.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Sept 9, 2022 5:54:12 GMT -6
So we all know that Custer was offered 4 companies from 2nd Cavalry but declined. What if he had accepted them? Would this have made a difference? What impact might this have had with the possible deployments? 1. Split them 2 more for Reno (5 companies) and 2 more for Custer (7 companies). (Delays Reno's retreat long enough for Benteen to arrive with his 3 companies in support. Allows Custer to forge ahead and gain the Non-Combatants) 2. Reno takes all 4 giving him 7 companies. (Allows Reno to maintain the attention of substantial Indians for much longer, and allows Benteen to either support Reno or move north to support Custer. 3. Custer keeps all 4 giving him 9 companies. (Gives Custer more options and perhaps a fighting chance to extricate his troops) Would it have simply meant an even bigger disaster & more white headstones on LSH? Or if the above scenarios are not feasible could it have provided the additional firepower to at least allow Custer to force a withdrawal? cheers Custer wanted all the glory for himself and his Regiment, but all four Companies of the 2nd could have escorted the mules. He could have thrown the entire Seventh into combat. From each Company a sergeant and six soldiers reinforced the rear, with the Companies of the 2nd in the rear, the Seventh would have been somewhat stronger. Could he have changed that somewhat? I donĀ“t know. Just as the Indians would have had more meat to chop.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 9, 2022 6:50:49 GMT -6
That was the trouble with the pack train pachi, it was all the personal gear of the troopers of each company and I don't think they would relish the idea of men from a different company, never mind a regiment being in charge of their personal items.
Ian
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Sept 9, 2022 7:10:23 GMT -6
That was the trouble with the pack train pachi, it was all the personal gear of the troopers of each company and I don't think they would relish the idea of men from a different company, never mind a regiment being in charge of their personal items. Ian They had nothing, the few spare clothes they had on them. The mules carried ammunition, fodder for the horses, and food. They would have had the 2nd Cavalry as servants
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 9, 2022 9:00:35 GMT -6
Well I am not really an expert on 1876 cavalry doctrine in the field but I think that each company was assigned six mules for personal items, all six looked after by six privates commanded by one NCO.
I think the ammunition, food and officers stuff may have been separate, even GAC and the RHQ had its own animals I guess.
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Sept 9, 2022 13:22:44 GMT -6
Well I am not really an expert on 1876 cavalry doctrine in the field but I think that each company was assigned six mules for personal items, all six looked after by six privates commanded by one NCO. I think the ammunition, food and officers stuff may have been separate, even GAC and the RHQ had its own animals I guess. The soldiers had nothing, thirteen dollars in their pockets the day they were paid. Besides, they were light, they left everything superfluous in the Powder River depot.
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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 11, 2022 4:48:31 GMT -6
Hey guys,
I was under the impression that Custer did not know Reno was in trouble. If Custer did know, then his movements make even less sense. The only logical reason to keep advancing had he known about Reno's retreat may have been to attack quickly via Ford B to relieve pressure on Reno. But the evidence seems thin that a major effort was made at ford B. So can we clarify this point? Is there some evidence that he was aware of Reno's dilemma?
cheers Francis
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Post by Bruce Robert on Sept 11, 2022 8:31:52 GMT -6
Question regarding timeline. If Terry had moved his command according to plans, when would he have arrived at LBH? And is it possible Custer was thinking/hoping Terry would be heading his way that day?
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2022 9:42:54 GMT -6
Bruce Robert,
Hello.
Montana column with Terry could not have arrived by the early morning of 26th June, which is given as Custer's original intention for a dawn attack. Terry progressed slowly along the Bighorn River and the infantry suffered badly for want of water in hauling the Gatling guns to the river from Tullock's Ck. and it rained. The cavalry progressed better but were only near the mouth of LBH on the morning of 26th. Enough was then learnt from three Crow scouts who had been attached to 7th Cavalry and escaped the battle that only cautious advance began closed up in full strength once the infantry arrived from its night camp. The advance of the 26th went into camp on the site of today's Crow Agency about six miles from Garryowen and perhaps eleven miles from the mouth of the Little Bighorn.
Based on a fast infantry march of 4mph, from say 5am 26th June, Montana column would have bumped the lower area of the Indian camp about 9-10am of the 26th. 2nd Cavalry could have preceeded by a couple of hours, had the infantry night marched with the Cavalry 25/26th June.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2022 10:00:40 GMT -6
Reno had a bunch of pony herders with his battalion, they where on his left flank as they rode up the valley, their hopes of capturing a load of free horses was dashed by a herd of warriors. For the whole regiment to get the horses, they would need to do a left hook, but still hold the attention of the blocking force. Reno basically got smashed by the sioux, if all the regiment hit through the valley, the sioux would soon be joined by the Cheyenne. Ian The stampede into the village from the west would require only a platoon or company and four companes is overkill. This was discussed elsewhere by considering the front involved in precison movement of herds. It doesn't work like that - but rather get a herd running frightened in the required direction and keep it running into collision. Horse people may tell it different but cattle or horses in stampede are a blind force of nature. Colliding with the camp simply guarantees utter chaos. I'm sat at the moment contemplating the implications for Europe of the wave of inflation unleashed upon us and its practical personal implications in what can only be a huge reset in increasing prices across at least the next two years and spiraling prices. There is stuff I am planning to purchase going forward and pricing has focused me somewhat on where things are headed. Buy now or forget........... so, i'm sipping link over budgets. *A potential hiccup with the stampede tactic is hobbling of ponies to stop them wandering to far, however I suspect the majority of herds were free ranging with the leaders of each group restrained in some way to manage the whole since we do know, the Indians knew and understood their animals intimately. Were it that animals were generally hobbled or tethered in some fashion then nothing would be accomplished. I feel that a stampede was a possibity but of course the soldiers would need to be able to ride amd manage it. Likewise, had the Sioux and or Cheyenne been determined to finish off Reno Hill - simplt gather a large herd behind Sharpshooter ridge and run it through the cavalry lines. That would have ended the standoff in short order with close quarter combat outnumbered 8-10 to 1. Game over. Indians loved and relied on thier animals too much. Imagine the camp dogs being trained to attack standards............ nice doggie....... whoops.........
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2022 10:55:40 GMT -6
7th Cavalry's packtrain was assembled at Powder River from 10th June 1876, whilst the regiment's Right Wing undertook the scout of Powder River which located the tracks and trails headed towards Rosebud which Lt. Bradley's scouting also discovered and reported back.
Thus it was that the left wing companies, A D G H K M , began familiarisation and training on 11th June and fully a week before the Powder Scout returned having done the exercise for real and with a Gatling gun in tow. Much is made of problems with the packrtains and I just point out that by time of battle the men had had two weeks or so of experience to bed things down.
The way it worked as best I can figure from the research done into it by Gray and others and various 19th cenury army publications, there were 12 company trains each reporting to their company commander. The packtrains were the responsibility of each company commander who for example were advised but given the choice not to, pack extra salt in case of pursuit which would run beyond the 15 days rations carried.
It seems that 11-12 mules per company was the count. There were animals assigned the HQ, and the Arikara Narrative gives 5 mules assigned to the Indian scouts and one of which carried a camp stove - an interesting load. I tried online to get an idea what this might possibly be but no luck to date and it sits on the pending todo. Custer had a desk travel with him according to Goldin. Reno was commented as travelling with a large carpet for his tent when Terry and Crook met up in mid-July. Two animals per company, it seems, carried the 1,000 round boxes of ammunition for the carbines and record from Peter Thompson amongst others indicates that reserves of pistol ammunition were also carried.
In travel, each group of company mules was its owm little ship under an NCO of their company, and this was used by Custer (according to Godfrey) to foster rivalry between units to hone efficiency. A half dozen or so mules followed a horse and possibly a condemned bell horse (tinkle, tinkle) and as mentioned, two weeks into daily routine things should have been reasonably bedded down. Of course until the night of 24/25 June, the trains had never made a night march and according to Benteen, Keogh was mightily embarrassed to hell and back shepherding the mules that night. There is however, as everything Benteen, some discrepency with who marched the rearguard that night.
Whilst it can be easily realised the night march of the packs didn't go smoothly, that does not mean the same for the daytime following of the dash up Reno Ck. and a few thirsty mules dashing to wallow in a slough as Godfrey's company left it, does not indicate a chaotic packtrain. In fact it suggests strongly they kept pace with Benteen and where and what Benteen got up to is the stuff of the dark arts.
For those with a technical bent, each animal carried around 200 lbs of load give or take, up to maybe 240 lbs. Take 160 mules and you get to 16 short tons, so the capability was 16-20 tons of load carrying 15 days rations for men - beans, biscuits and maybe dried pork, coffee, salt, i'd imagine some form of fruit with the scurvy issue long understood, 2 lbs oats per day per horse. Scouts in particular and marksmen were usually trusted to hunt subject to SoP. Tents. Kit to maintain and secure the horses. I doubt a lot else could be squeezed in.
Horses usually output about 35 pounds of fecal matter daily, and around 2.5 - 4 gallons of wet stuff. Each person was losing around a 1 lb and maybe a half gallon of fluid. With 700 people and mounts, that is 10 tons of pooh and 10 tons of wee per day. 7th Cavalry followed a host approaching 10-12 thousand people and twice as many ponies. Aaah, a life on the Plains. Let it rain, Lord. Please............. let it rain.
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