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Post by elisabeth on Apr 18, 2006 1:47:12 GMT -6
I've never heard that he was -- and he seems to have been somewhat on the outs with the church anyway, if Libbie's "notices of excommunication" story is to be believed! -- but you've opened up an interesting line of enquiry there. I'll keep my eyes peeled!
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Apr 18, 2006 7:10:46 GMT -6
Thanks! On another note of interest, would anyone know why the Knight's Templar once honored General Custer at a party? I think it's in one of the books on Custer, but I do not know which one. Was George's father or brother a Mason?
Thanks,,,,,,,, Gary
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Post by Tricia on Apr 18, 2006 8:04:51 GMT -6
Gary--
After the successful conclusion of the ACW, Custer was honoured just about everywhere. His letters are filled with references about groups' parties here, there, and every place in between. From private clubs in Baltimore to Wall Street to minor royalty in New York ... so I wouldn't necessarily be surprised that GAC was once honoured by some association of the Knights Templar. This was the kind of stuff that came with being GAC--besides it was a great way to get a free meal.
As to the "whys," let's look at it like this. Custer was the youngest major general of the Union army, handsome, extremely famous (or notorious as the case might be), war hero, good company ... A lot of folks wanted to get a part of him (as well as other members of the winning army)--to use a newer term, "wine and dine" him--and it was quite the thing to do. The treatment GAC received in the mid-Nineteenth Century was really no different than what a celebrity today might expect--or than a myraid of other generals who fought against the south.
As for other Custers being Masons, I can only answer that I've seen no indication that Tom ever was a participant--or applied for membership. Perhaps a third cousin twice removed?
Regards, LMC
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Apr 18, 2006 16:54:16 GMT -6
Another piece of information that makes one wonder about Custer and the Knights of Malta! Can anyone make sense of this page on the INTERNET? tinyurl.com/nz8e3Gary I replaced the link because it didn't work properly and it blew out the board. Please use tinyurl.com to transform huge links into small ones. It's free and easy. Thanks. -- DMI have a copy of a letter addressed to Mrs. Custer, that was sent by "The Ancient and Illustrious Order of the Knights of Malta" (Authored by,Harry Deshaven). The letter is a request for her permission to name their lodge after her husband. The name they wanted to adopt was: "General Custer's Command of the Ancient and Illustrious Order of the Knights of Malta" Wow! What a long title! Does anyone know if GAC was associated with this organization? Thanks,,,,,,,,Gary
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Apr 18, 2006 17:37:28 GMT -6
Boy, Gary, you're persistent, I'll give you that! It's a just a pity you're putting so much otherwise commendable researching zeal into chasing a chimera, however. I'll give you a last response on this one, too: The book pasage you seem to think has some significance for linking Custer with Freemasonry/Knights of Malta does nothing of the kind. It is page 241 of Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain's Civil War memoir The Passing of the Armies: An Account of the Final Campaign of the Army of the Potomac. In this passage, Chamberlain, commander of the 20th Maine, records witnessing the initial stage of the Confederate surrender at Appomatox. In particular, he describes seeing Colonel Whitaker of Custer's staff escorting in a Confederate staff officer under a white flag of truce. Chamberlain describes watching these two riding "straight for our little group beneath our battle-flag, high borne also - the red Maltese Cross on a field of white, that had thrilled hearts long ago." You'll note that Chamberlain is referring to the flag flying above where his group is standing. The Brigade flag of the 20th Maine was a red Maltese Cross on a triangular white background. Chamerlain was a college professor at Bowdoin College before volunteering. His only qualification for military service at time of enlitment was his being "a gentleman of the highest moral, intellectual and literary worth." That reference to the device on his Brigade flag having 'thrilled hearts long ago' is clearly a literary allusion by the college professor in him to the device sported by the crusaders of medieval times - and Chamberlain certainly saw the Union cause as a form of moral crusade. Quite why you think any of this has any relevance to Custer, or your suggestions of him being a member of secret societies is beyond me! Over and out! GAC
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Apr 18, 2006 18:38:30 GMT -6
We're all aware that the knight's of Malta and the Mason's are two separate organizations. When I come across these bits and pieces that I've not seen before and do not understand, I like to inquire of those that may have the answers. My interests include far more than just a watch! It's that simple!
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Post by Tricia on Apr 19, 2006 8:44:40 GMT -6
GAC--
I'm gonna pony this up so this doesn't get all blown out of proportion and misinterpreted ... but wasn't the Custer medallion (the tuebor one designed by Tiffany's) in the shape of a modified Maltese Cross (I know, groan)? I think it gets back to what you are saying--there were only so many significant icons out there, so there was bound to be repetition, especially when one is dealing with what many must have felt was the Nineteenth Century version of a Crusade.
In no way am I saying that because of the use of this iconography, Custer was a member of or contemplated membership with the Knights of Malta!
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Apr 19, 2006 9:24:24 GMT -6
Now don't you go all grasy-knoll conspiracy theorist on me Leyton! Seriously, though, you're right about the modified maltese cross shape of the Tiffany medal. As you correctly note, however, the shape was ubiquitous in military heraldry - for instance the British Victoria Cross had been instituted just a few years before Custer's Tiffany medals, and it too was a Maltese Cross (which doesn't mean, of course, that Queen Victoria was a Knight of Malta!) Ditto the Prussian Iron Cross and numerous other awards and unit insignia the world over. I seem to remember having seen Keogh's Papal Medal (that's Papal as in the Vatican, not a method of payment on ebay ). Was it the Order of St Gregory? Anyway, it too was an elaborated Maltese Cross. Now Catholic Keogh, with his Vatican service. is at least a realistic possibility to suggest as a member of the Knights of Malta - unlike Custer. Ciao, GAC
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Post by Tricia on Apr 19, 2006 9:59:57 GMT -6
Don't worry, sir--I'm just practicing my flanking maneuvers! ;D
But getting back to the elephant in the corner, I am wondering--and maybe James can chime in here--if perhaps we, in examining the artifact in question, are dealing with multiple instances of the jeweler's art. Could it be possible that the "Masonic" symbol upon the alleged Custer watch pre-dates the "From the Michigan Brigade, etc., etc." part? Granted, I've gotten to the point where I am grasping at straws ...
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Apr 19, 2006 12:45:58 GMT -6
My two book set of, PRESIDENTS, SOLDIERS, STATESMEN, 1776----1889, is chuck full of Civil War era, pictures of medals and or flags that have the Maltese Cross on them. It must have been a very important symbol! Wasn't it also used by the Germans?
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Post by Tricia on Apr 19, 2006 13:27:14 GMT -6
Gary--
That's the exact point we're making. The Maltese Cross symbol was almost ubiquitious in warfare; so much so that it almost loses its original, Catholic significance AND when we see one in regards to GAC, we shouldn't be taken aback or race off to write a dissertation. It was a handy and effective piece of iconography ... it can lead to an interesting discussion, but there just isn't anything more to it than that.
I think the more interesting question that has been touched upon here is whether Myles Keogh might have been associated with the abovementioned Catholic organisation.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Jas. Watson on Apr 19, 2006 15:23:11 GMT -6
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another piece of information that makes one wonder about Custer and the Knights of Malta! Can anyone make sense of this page on the INTERNET? tinyurl.com/nz8e3<<<The 'maltese cross' in question was the insignia of the Fifth Army Corps, it being red is the deliniation of the first division within that corps (of which Chamberlain's unit was a member) a white one would be for the second division, blue being the third. The fifth corps fought under that symbol from the early spring of 1863 on--through some of their most fearsome battles. So thus it would mean things to the 'old' veterans of that corps much as a soldier's army patch would in later years. That's all that passage refers to--their unit insignia on their flag. Nothing the least out of ordinary. All the men of that corps wore maltese crosses on their caps too...just as the men of the second corps wore 'clubs', the sixth Greek crosses, the 24th hearts, etc. etc. No mystery. You're digging, I'll give you that.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Apr 19, 2006 16:02:30 GMT -6
Thanks for the response,,,,,,,,,,, Gary
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Post by elisabeth on Apr 20, 2006 4:32:11 GMT -6
Leyton,
Re Keogh and the Knights of Malta: anything's possible -- but I have to say it feels unlikely to me ...
Let's hear from the man himself on the subject of religion. He's writing to his brother Tom in 1867, just after the Pope has banned American Protestants from holding religious services in Rome -- even inside the American legation. He is not best pleased. He says:
"Rest assured, my dear Tom, that the time is past for such proceedings and it can only impair the Church by showing to the World that intolerance in religious matters, now only heard of in Savage and barbarous countries, is flourishing and extending under the rule of the Head of the Catholic Church. Times are too much ahead for these things ..."
He goes on to say that he has adopted what he regards as the American view, which is that "all religions are in the same boat, and be you Catholic or Protestant, you are judged only by your merits as a man ..."
And it looks as if he became even more of an arm's-length Catholic as time went on. There's Libbie's notices-of-excommunication story, which may or may not be true; Libbie also speaks of the famous Agnus Dei as being "a love-token" rather than worn for religious reasons; and finally, there's his burial -- in a Protestant cemetery, with an Episcopalian funeral service, and marked by a monument that carries no religious symbols whatsoever, least of all any Maltese Cross. There's no Knights of Malta delegation in his funeral procession; and no mention of membership of the Knights of Malta in any of the obituaries from Irish newspapers that are in the National Library of Ireland microfilm collection. Nor is there any Maltese Cross symbol (that I can see) in the stained-glass window commemorating him in the little church in Tinryland, Co. Carlow, which you'd think there would be if he had been a member. (His family would surely know, even if others didn't.) One can't prove a negative, of course; but on balance the evidence would seem to be against it, don't you think?
[Quotes taken from the Langellier/Cox/Pohanka biography, p. 60; his letter dated February 23rd 1867.]
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Apr 20, 2006 5:38:03 GMT -6
Great exposition, Elizabeth! And convincing. Keogh's a bit of an unknown quantity to me, but on the face of it his Catholicism and Vatican service suggested him as a more plausible candidate for membership of the Knights of Malta - if anyone from the 7th was ever a member of that Order! (although DeRudio might also prima facie fit the bill?) But with no known references to any 7th member being a member this is pure speculation - which we wouldn't even be engaging upon if it weren't for the specious attempts to rig a tenuous provenance for that damned watch!
Anyway, your references to Keogh's take on his religion convinces me that Keogh is a non-starter as a candidate. And if Catholic Keogh, with his Vatican service and decorations, is out of the frame, how much more ludicrous does the suggestion that Custer was a Knight of Malta start to look!
Ciao, GAC
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