logan
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Post by logan on Jan 1, 2020 7:07:38 GMT -6
Finally acquired this book too, but curiously seem to recall I was advised against it....not sure of the reasons why
Anybody ?
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Post by noggy on Jan 1, 2020 8:46:54 GMT -6
Finally acquired this book too, but curiously seem to recall I was advised against it....not sure of the reasons why Anybody ? Hi logan. From reading the title alone, it reeks of conspiracy theories and sensationalism (correct word?). Checking the amazon reviews, it is very mixed with either 5, 3 or 1 stars. A book with original maps sounds like a good buy, but my guess is that there`s a lot more speculative stuff going on here. When you`ve read it, please share your thoughts with us! All the best, Noggy
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logan
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Post by logan on Jan 1, 2020 8:51:30 GMT -6
Thanks Noggy. Will do regarding my opinion of it
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Post by fred on Jan 1, 2020 9:42:08 GMT -6
I have the King book, but have never read it. Through years of conversations-- and I have had this book for a long time-- it appears King was a little off kilter. When I am finished with these two books and have them off to the publisher, I will tackle a few of these gems... over a glass of Scotch and plenty of blood pressure medicine.
Logan, I do not know how deeply you are into this thing, but if you are merely ferreting around for decent books on the subject, let me make the following recommendations.
First and foremost is James Willert's Little Big Horn Diary, the best overall book on the general campaign, plus his synopsis of the battle. For me, it is the most-have primer.
For advanced "students," the best book ever written on the Custer fight alone, is Richard Fox' Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle. It is a scientific rendering of the 1984-1985 excavations, of which the author was one of the two leaders.
Another "must" is Gregory Michno's Lakota Noon. The only caveat would be his use of John Gray's faulty timelines. It is understandable, however, since Michno needed some sort of template to arrange his narratives. A superb book.
Beyond those three, I think every other narrative is an opinion piece, 95% of them cherry-picking first-hand accounts to the author's theories and prejudices.
There are dozens of other superb books out there, but I categorize them as reference works, e.g., Ron Nichols' Reno Court of Inquiry. Without this one, you know nothing.
The James Donovan book, A Terrible Glory, is very nicely done, but is ravaged by the author's personal prejudices, even though his character vignettes are extremely good. It is a fine "starter book," rivaling Edgar Stewart's classic, Custer's Luck. If you absorb those two without developing the authors' prejudices, you are well on your way to qualify for the tough stuff.
Best wishes, Fred.
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logan
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Post by logan on Jan 1, 2020 10:12:46 GMT -6
Hi Fred. Appreciate the suggestions... I do have a few other LBH books too...as you’ll notice I’m kinda involved not only in the battle itself, but the aftermath, politics, legal issues, etc. LBH authors cover a much more vast range of subject matter, unlike the Zulu War 1879, where there is a noticeable aversion to going ‘outside the box’ questioning areas not given due study...almost like these important points are being avoided, due to fear of the well-known majority preference of how events happened, being affected or changed, not as perfect (for want of a better word) as things have been portrayed. I use a study method based on Bruce Lee’s idea of Broken Rhythm - not being predictable in my responses in debates regarding Isandhlwana...it catches others wrongfooted, as they likely have not studied the ‘angles’ that I’m pointing out, as a hypothetical approach to highlight flaws in their argument...it is not liked by others...but quite successful
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 1, 2020 13:25:39 GMT -6
Hi Logan, good see the number of British on this board grow ever larger by the year. Apart from Fred’s canon of books, you may need the book ‘where Custer Fell’.
Ian
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logan
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Post by logan on Jan 1, 2020 13:50:51 GMT -6
Thanks Yan. I can only speak for myself, but I remember 20+ years ago had been more reading about Custer than any British Commanders, but reached a point where I was seeking what you might call a British Custer so to speak, took ages, until I found him after reading about Isandhlwana, being Col Durnford. There have been many comparisons between these two men and battles, for various reasons, myself recently having acquired the books - Custer and the Sioux, Durnford and the Zulus; and the other being The Dust Rose Like Smoke, which compares the Sioux with the Zulus.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 1, 2020 14:23:36 GMT -6
Hi Logan, since I have been on these boards, the comparison between the BLBH and Isandlwana has raised its head quite a few times. But I can’t see any comparison between the Zulu and the Sioux and Cheyenne. Now I am no expert of the Zulu but it seems to me like they would attack you in the open and be quite prepare to take heavy casualties.
The Indians didn’t seem to do that and what I have read about the Sioux, if you hit enough of them early, they rest would think that this was bad medicine and today was a not a good day to fight, which meant that they wanted to live. I know that BLBH was a battle of survival for the Indians and that they had superior numbers, but Custer’s men could shoot for toffee and the Indians grew more confident as the battle went on.
The Zulu’s got shot up pretty bad at Isandlwana, maybe losing over 1000 warriors, but they still kept on coming, if the 7th killed the same amount of enemy at BLBH, I think the Indians would have called off their attacks.
Ian
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logan
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Post by logan on Jan 1, 2020 14:32:39 GMT -6
Yes, from what I remember of the first edition of The Dust Rose Like Smoke I got several years ago, it was more comparing how they were both treated by the whites, land-grabbing, etc., rather than their tactics or strategy, especially the Zulus preferring using their short spear - the assegai - even though they had some firearms. I was always intrigued from the get-go, why the Zulus never seemed to develop the bow and arrow....choosing to close with their enemy for hand-to-hand
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 27, 2021 13:28:21 GMT -6
This is a minor point, but looked out this book but yet to read, though was surprised to see such a large portrait photograph of the author inside - W. Kent King - I don’t think I’ve ever seen tan author of a book being the dominant illustration on the inside, is he as well-known or got a large following that this photo seems to indicate, though not an important question.
Usually Custer himself takes pride of place, as I found out when I purchased the book The Custer Album, the large portrait now framed on my wall.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 27, 2021 17:32:45 GMT -6
King is an interesting anomoly, long deceased and a remarkable researcher. With that in mind it is worth the read but tends into monotony with driven conspiracy as theme. It is unusual, highlights Patterson Hughes as significant within the story, of the story of the battle, and he didn't write the final chapter. It isn't a simple read and typeface is actually exhausting.
It's worth the read for being so different, coherent and obssessive. There never was one huge conspiracy just lots of minor self interests. For example, Patterson Hughes was married to Terry's sister and batted the family innings. Things died down until Terry passed away around 1890 and then.... then it exploded with Hughes dragging up the Custer disobeyed orders matter in the press related to Terry's funeral. Mrs. Custer responded and what was left well alone, has gone on ever since. Reno didn't help either, having passed away shortly before and openly castigating Custer as a coward, in the press.
The Reno, Benteen, Custer, blame game suited the Terry camp and everyone above. It's fascinating. Reno's family are still fighting to clear his name and muddy Custer but that's the French for you. What about Macron at the moment - completely lost the plot....
It's worth the read but take your time and enjoy it. It'sthe stuff he found, not what he made of it.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 27, 2021 19:20:42 GMT -6
Herosrest
Thanks for that. My apologies for keeping using a comparison, but I was put off many books (other interest) because there was a blatant agenda that any family-related publications were too biased to be read, but in time realised the former were pursuing their own ends years later, almost like they were preparing the way for their own conclusions. I’ve only just bought the books I was determinedly advised against buying, now understand why this was the case....they kinda upset the accepted norm.
I ended up disillusioned by the continued publication of books by the same authors over and over again, saying the same thing, but when a new author said different, it was destroyed.
I guess it is the same in all interests, but it does make you lose faith in modern written works - exclude anything not going along with the author’s theory which is written as fact.
I’ve found it almost wants me to give up studying history tbh
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Post by herosrest on Mar 28, 2021 0:57:37 GMT -6
History is always going to be important to the living and that means those with influence and those who don't like a given portrayal. I suspect strongly that neither Custer, Sitting Bull, or Leonidas care a fig today about what they did. It is interesting to contemplate whether each might do things differently given a second chance. Little Bighorn is hugely factionalised by bombastic arrogance and quasi pedantry as analaslytics It is there to be enjoyed for its lessons about what history is. I enjoyed the book and found it worthwhile. It was not a breeze or flip through and solves nothing besides broadening understanding. That in itself is remarkable. A far better work is Bob Doran's, on the horsemanship angle. Do not lose your love for past wonders and the lessons. People are people. linkClassic
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 28, 2021 13:05:06 GMT -6
Re: I suspect strongly that neither Custer . . .care a fig today about what they did
Custer did care about what he did. That's why he brought reporters with him on a lot of his campaigns. That's why he wrote a book and numerous articles embellishing his actions.
That's why he always wanted to stand out from other officers like wear a uniform like a circus rider gone mad.
I believe Custer wanted to go down in history as someone great and to be always remembered.
He ended up being always remembered but not for the right reason!
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 28, 2021 20:08:07 GMT -6
It is true, although Custer probably didn’t look beyond his own lifetime for fame and popularity, if he had access to what we have today he’d have been on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, etc., with selfies of him and Libbie, talking about his career, adventures, hunting, etc., probably called autielibbie, hoping for many ‘likes’ and chances of interviews, etc., on other media., plus photo shoots in Hello magazine and other cofffee table mags !
He certainly understood the concept of celebrity and making himself a legend (even if in his own mind)
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