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Post by lakotadan on Nov 1, 2023 17:41:08 GMT -6
So, just to clarify something to my friends "out there".
This Forgotten Ravine thing has been fun, interesting, educational, and quite (for me) a once in a lifetime expierence!
The mere fact that I am in contact with the National Park Service about my "Forgotten Ravine" thing is a "giant leap forward" for Dan !
If the National Park Service just totally disregards and disagrees with my research and states "no way" I am "totally wrong", that is O.K. with me!
I know I gave it my "best shot".
But, until I hear back from the NPS, "the adventure continues"!
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 19:35:57 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 19:41:05 GMT -6
Another...wow those ravine banks are steep - like vertical! And another area shot..
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Post by lakotadan on Nov 2, 2023 7:11:41 GMT -6
Thank you my friend johnson1941 for finding those old pictures! So, I included some pictures below for comparison. The first picture is the one you included that we know (because it is marked) is the deep ravine. The other 2 pictures have been included in this thread before, and I surmized that they could be pictures of the Forgotten Ravine. Are they pictures of the forgotten ravine? Are they pictures of the deep ravine from another angle? I don't know ! My summation of those other pictures being the forgotten ravine could be totally wrong. Oh well ! The one that is the only "good" picture of the forgotten ravine may be that 1932 aerial photograph (a close-up view of that area is included below). Anyway, that aerial view was enough to convince me that there was definetly something in that area (a bowl or basin feature) below Last Stand Hill. Not "holding my breath" to hear something back from the archaeologist at the NPS (I would be turning blue by now, or worse ! - Ha, ha, ha, etc!).
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Post by noggy on Nov 4, 2023 2:32:52 GMT -6
There are soooo many LBH enthusiasts out there, but I reckon most are just people who have their own theories/models, and therefor don't really contact the NPS. It is pretty cool that they aren't just blowing you off. For some reason I used to always think museums and so on were useless to ask about stuff, but the times I have (including asking specifics about Norwegian artillery for forum legend Ian) there have always been helpful answers. I bet the NPS appreciate any serious questions, big or small, realistic or far fetched, regarding their field of expertise. Not just mails from kids who want their homework done for them. I hope you continue to post any replies from the.
As far as I can understand, if there Now, I'm not arc....archbisho... archaeologist, but would it be very demanding in terms of money/personell/resources to do a survey (right word?) to check out the soil in a confined area of the battlefield? Unless you find "THE" photograph, it will be the way to make sure you are right. It would be cool to see that. In general, I don't hear much about archaeological work at LBH these days, are they "done" with it? I know there are some issues with privately owned land outside the NPS' area, but not the details.
Noggy
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Post by lakotadan on Nov 4, 2023 5:56:10 GMT -6
Thank you my friend noggy for your support!
I know that the NPS has a Midwest Archeological Center that is devoted to conducting research at the National Parks. I also think that they have other archeologists working for them throughout United States.
I believe to determine if the Forgotten Ravine existed would take only 2 core samples (but what do I know!). One core sample of the area that is not part of the ravine, and another core sample that is believed to have been part of the filled in ravine.
I figure if they compare the 2 core samples that would determine if something was filled in or not.
However, I have not heard back from the archeologist that my email was forwareded to at the NPS.
I think that they are letting me know that it is a "no go" situation.
But I still have hope!
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Post by lakotadan on Apr 28, 2024 13:12:39 GMT -6
Hello all!
Well, it has been a while! As far as any more contact with the NPS, that is a “no go”! But at least I gave it my “best shot”!
I still feel that the “Forgotten ravine” exists. In my previous posts on this thread dated October 29th, 2023 (6:22am), and October 30th, 2023 (10:36am) I described why I think “fierce fighting” occurred in and around the “bowl or basin” feature of the Forgotten ravine.
Now, the 150th anniversary of the battle is coming up in 2026. Wouldn’t it be cool if the people visiting the battlefield saw an actual archeological dig in progress in and around the Forgotten ravine site! Wouldn’t it be cooler yet if that archeological team actually found something of importance!
Like I stated in my above post of November 4, 2023 (4:56am) it would probably only take 2 core samples to determine if the Forgotten ravine exists! That outlay of expenditures would probably be only a fraction of the cost of the new Visitor Center!
Anyway, I plan to go to the battlefield again this year. It is a great experience, especially with having some insights into the battle and how it was fought.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2024 8:46:42 GMT -6
Take a metal detector, you never know. I doubt they'd let you carry pickaxe and shovel which is about the only way any soil will get turned. My own view is that that ravine is much nearer the river and contained about a dozen men, maybe sixteen or eighteen, and that it is either on the mouth of DR or in the vicinity of FH. One of the best accounts of what was where, was left in the Cherokee Advocate article of July 1877, but good as it is, it is a pointless exercise without a related map. Well done for hanging in there and, who was signing off for NPS? Name and shame
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Post by lakotadan on Apr 29, 2024 9:55:45 GMT -6
(Thanks, herosrest for your post and thoughts-) So, since I am talking about an archeological dig at the battlefield, let me add something here. I know the chances of the NPS (National Park Service) conducting an archeological dig of the area are now extremely slim to none! But, if such a dig was to eventually be conducted, here is the area that I think the dig should begin. That area is where the Cemetery ridge ravine and what I term as the Forgotten ravine meet. I believe that is closest to the area shown on Maguire’s map as “H” (many bodies found here). I also believe the bodies were moved from “H” and placed into the Forgotten ravine (and then dirt kicked from the sides of the Forgotten ravine to bury the bodies). Now, why was that done? Because you have to remember that the bodies were buried only 2 days after the battle. The guys burying the bodies probably have no good clue as to where the NAs are or if the NAs are going to attack! If I was in their shoes, all I would want to do is to bury the bodies as quickly as possible and “get the hell” out of there! The Forgotten ravine was probably (just my best guess!) only about 3 feet deep to 6 feet deep (depending on where you are along its path). Remember, the “grave diggers” gave Custer (GAC) the best burial. And I have read where he was buried only 2 feet into the ground! So, the grave diggers may have just thrown the bodies into the Forgotten ravine (since it was less wide – narrower- than the Cemetery ridge ravine) kicked dirt over the bodies, called it good and moved on! Knowing that, at a later date, the remains would probably be uncovered and moved to another location. There is a saying in the military (yes, I am a veteran!) “work smarter, not harder"! Of course, this is all just my opinion and my thoughts on where the bodies were buried! If the remains were actually moved and buried under the monument, maybe there are still some artifacts to be found in the area. Pictures of where I think the dig should begin (indicated by a red circle - or in one case a red arrow because the picture didn't include the area I wanted to show) and a picture of Macquire’s map are attached. Just some more interesting stuff!
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Post by lakotadan on Apr 29, 2024 13:42:42 GMT -6
Hello my friends! More stuff here! I don’t know what more it will take to convince the NPS that a geological feature of the battlefield (which I contend probably played a significant role in the battle) was filled in! What is interesting the area I term the “Forgotten ravine” was evidently on the top of a small hill, with the drainage of the “bowl or basin” feature draining off two sides of the basin (or bowl). One side drains into the Cemetery ridge ravine, and the other side drains into the Deep ravine. You can see areas of that natural erosion occurring once again at where the Forgotten ravine meets the Cemetery ridge ravine and the Deep ravine. Now, although it was filled in (perhaps in about 1935) you “can’t fool with Mother Nature”! I have included a picture of the Forgotten ravine. If you look at the areas that I mentioned above, you can see that the “natural drainage” and the erosion that it produces is once again occurring! I also included a picture (and please excuse my poor drawing!) of the top view of that ravine, and a side view. The blue lines are the Forgotten ravine, the red dashes indicate the filled in ravine, and the green arrows indicate direction of drainage. Of course, getting on Google maps now, the ravine is hard to discern (a lot of vegetation and stuff – man it is quite different than the previous pictures on this thread!). But I can see it because I know where it is (I have spent a lot of time looking at it through the course of this thread!). It can’t hide from me! Ha, ha, ha, etc! I have also included current Google pictures of the area (with the Forgotten ravine marked in blue). I can see the drainage of the once bowl or basin feature (although now it is more or less flat) and the erosion that it produces at the juncture of the Cemetery ridge ravine and the Deep ravine that is occurring (again!). Maybe over the next couple of hundred years (or thousands of years) the Forgotten ravine will exist again (unless the NPS fills it in – ha, ha, ha, etc!). Where is a geologist when you need one!! The adventure continues!
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Post by lakotadan on May 1, 2024 19:51:53 GMT -6
Hello my friends!
So, just “spit balling” here and trying to put everything together that I have read on the various threads (and the internet) over a period of time.
My thoughts and opinions. And something like this can never be verified.
If the Forgotten ravine existed (and I am certain that it did) what role would it have played in the battle?
Long story short. Custer left two of his officers and several troops to guard his left flank (or rear area?) from the oncoming NAs (coming at him from the direction of where Reno was under attack) as he tried to make one more crossing of the river. Whether he finally went around Cemetery ridge to ford the river (maybe waiting on top of that ridge for a period of time hoping for possible reinforcements to show up?), or he went down the middle (or that area) of the Cemetery ridge ravine to reach the river is unknown.
He then made a final attempt at crossing the river at ford D to attack the village. He never made it to the other side of the river. I believe he was wounded in the attempt.
So now there is a mass retreat by the command (in the direction of LSH) as the NAs are swarming across the river and Custer is wounded.
A rear guard is placed in the Forgotten ravine to cover the retreat to what later becomes known as LSH. Also, several troopers are placed in or along the Cemetery ridge ravine (maybe in close proximity to where the Forgotten ravine joins the Cemetery ridge ravine?).
The troops in the Forgotten ravine covered the retreat to LSH (with the troopers in the Cemetery ridge ravine trying to fend off the NAs coming over Cemetery ridge). But now the NAs are coming over the Cemetery ridge and also below LSH, behind the troops in the Forgotten ravine. The NAs (coming from the river, over the Cemetery ridge, and those that destroyed Custer's former rear guard left on Battle ridge, now all meet up). Custer's command is now totally surrounded!
The NAs are now not only in front of those troops in the Forgotten ravine, but also behind them! The troops along the Cemetery ridge ravine had already been overrun (and maybe a few troops that were left on top of Cemetery ridge) and killed.
Now the NAs attack and overrun LSH in a final victory.
The troops in the Forgotten ravine try to make a run for it, but they are all shot in the back by NAs that are now behind them. Or they made a stand, and many of the dead were taken out of the Forgotten ravine, scalped, and mutilated. That is why there may be no fallen soldier markers in the the bowl feature of the Forgotten ravine – only outside the area of it that is closest to the Cemetery ridge ravine - although there are soldier markers in the (now filled in) Forgotten ravine (please see my post of October 4th referred to below). Anyway, this was going on at the same time as the NAs claimed their final victory on LSH.
I also have another theory on the troops that (I believe) were led by a sergeant (or maybe an officer) to make a “dash for it” from LSH to an area of known cover. But that may be something for another time!
When the troops had to shoot their horses on LSH for cover, that is a sign of total desperation. Maybe the strategy of Custer (and maybe some of his officers after Custer was wounded) was sound. But it just didn’t work when the NAs outnumbered them at least 10 to 1 (or maybe 20 to 1!).
Many of my “opinions” here can be seen (and explained) in my posts on this thread of October 4th, 2023 (1:52pm), October 27th, 2023 (3:20pm), and October 30th, 2023 (10:36am)- and probably a few other of my posts - if anybody is interested in this “best guess” of mine!
Of course, I could be totally wrong! But it is a fun “exercise” for me to try to put these things together (and I figure as good a guess as anybody else’s analysis of the battle since what actually happened will never be known) and ascertain what role the Forgotten ravine played in the battle!
Using my guess of what happened, I can actually see it occurring in “my mind’s eye”!
Maybe I need to “let this go” and take a short vacation! Ha, ha, ha, etc!
Just some more interesting stuff! Onward my friends!
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Post by lakotadan on May 2, 2024 18:32:49 GMT -6
Hello all!
Thanks for putting up with my theory about the Forgotten ravine!
Anyway, looking at the current Google maps of the battlefield (and it is hard to discern because of the vegetation) I count about 24 fallen soldier markers in the Forgotten ravine or within about 80 feet of it (please correct me if I am wrong!). Also, refer to my pictures posted on April 29th, at 12:42pm for a markup of where the filled in Forgotten ravine is (although I had to get on Google maps again to try to zoom in on the markers. Are those rocks, or markers!).
So, are the number of fallen soldier markers along the Forgotten ravine a coincidence? I think not!
I believe that the Forgotten ravine was the only available area of natural cover running in a (more or less) West and East (eventually curving more South) direction that was on the battlefield.
I think that the fallen soldier markers indicate those troops that were killed in the Forgotten ravine, running towards it, or running out of it.
My goal here is not to try to convince the members of this great forum that the Forgotten ravine existed. Personally, I am convinced of it! My goal is to try to convince the NPS (National Park Service) that the ravine existed (hopefully there are some members of the NPS that read these posts!).
I have encountered this same type of thinking on other forums. Anything that goes against the “status quo” is ignored. Some people just can’t think “outside the box” or their heads would figuratively “explode”! Why? Because they can’t handle the new thought processing!
This Forgotten ravine thing is so obvious to me that the NPS needs to “wake up” and “catch up” (my opinion)!
So far in that endeavor (convincing the NPS), I have failed! But that doesn’t mean that I won’t try again at another time!
I am probably the only member still talking about this. But that is fine by me! By placing my posts on this forum, I am in a sense copyrighting them!
The adventure continues! And Onwards my friends!
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Post by lakotadan on May 3, 2024 15:54:59 GMT -6
Oh well, my friends, just some more thoughts here! I know that many of you are probably saying “5 posts in a row, what is he doing writing a book!” Actually, that is a fairly good idea!
So, during the course of this thread the fact that the Forgotten ravine is not shown on any maps has been discussed. Well, I believe part of the Forgotten ravine was shown (my opinion) on Maguire’s map. I believe he enlarged the area to show the exact position of “H” (many bodies found here”). I also believe this area was where the Forgotten ravine joins up with the Cemetery ridge ravine.
Whatever! Now it has been my mistake throughout this thread to describe the Forgotten ravine as “a major geological feature that played a significant role in the battle”. I was wrong!
I would like to now describe it as “a minor geological feature that played a significant role in the battle”. I mean compared to the size of the Deep ravine and the Cemetery ridge ravine; the Forgotten ravine is relatively small and insignificant (before it was filled in).
Maybe the guys that made the maps didn’t include the Forgotten ravine because the scale of the maps was too small? The Forgotten ravine would probably be considered too insignificant to include on the maps.
If the maps were made to a larger scale, perhaps the Forgotten ravine would have been shown?
Anyway, just my (new) thoughts on the subject for now!
So, onward!
Also, like I have stated in several of my posts, it would only take 2 core samples to determine if the Forgotten ravine existed. One core sample taken in the area I considered was filled in, and another core sample taken outside of that area on another part of the battlefield. Then a geologist would compare both samples. If the samples show that the ravine was filled in, then probably the next step would be to take ground penetrating radar to the area. Then after that, an archeological dig would be conducted.
My friends, this is not rocket science!
If I am found to be wrong about the Forgotten ravine, then at least I had a great time on this thread! It was fun, educational, and a great learning experience with valuable posts from other members (hey my friends, thanks for that!).
But if I am right, then the NPS has an area of the battlefield to study and extensive research to conduct!
Right now, I am sure that the NPS is more concerned with their (probably) multi-million-dollar new visitor center (and I am sure it will be a beautiful place - can't wait to visit it when it is completed!) at the battlefield then they are with taking 2 core samples!
Anyway, in a couple of years (if I am “still around”!) maybe the NPS will consider my Forgotten ravine thing and take some actions to disprove or prove it when I contact them again!
Like I stated in one of my previous posts, I will visit the battlefield again in a couple of months! That in itself is a great experience, and I really like the (about one hour long) tour on the small bus (tickets bought at the visitor center) that they give!
The adventure continues! Onward my friends!
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