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Post by tubman13 on Oct 27, 2019 17:57:13 GMT -6
I guess nobody has read about the Cheyenne wikiups reported by the army north of the main Cheyenne village. You know the same structures that some of the Custer troops commented on, on the way to the LBH, thinking they may have been built for dogs. HR you are better than that, you seem to be a great researcher, but you sometimes only find what you want.
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Oct 28, 2019 18:35:24 GMT -6
It's an area of interst which most students accept as contributing to number counts. Hygiene is important to outdoor life and for example you don't just wander round to the back of your tent and bless it. Cheyenne "Pretty Bird" during a sweat lodge ceremony. Allen Russell - Real Bird sweat lodge. Sweat lodge frame at Medicine Tail. There is a reasonable explanation in the tradion of sweat lodges which today might be considered a spa treatment. An explanation for a matter which vexed military minds. I suggest that it would be difficult to keep a dog in there once the red hot rocks were giving off steam.
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 30, 2019 12:27:18 GMT -6
HR, a wikiup is a totally different item than a sweat lodge(you know that). If the number of wickiups, were sweat lodges, then you have scoop and GAC won the battle.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 31, 2019 7:44:50 GMT -6
Does it concern anyone that these soldiers didn't know anything about these structures and thought they were for dogs?
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Post by herosrest on Nov 5, 2019 18:04:14 GMT -6
It is of course a little more complicated than a Dave Bowie song title. There would have been sweat lodges even though the village located where it was attacked only the day before because they are simple structures. Tipis also are relatively easy work but packing up everything else of daily life (possessions) was probably a time consuming chore and risk, in close proximity to hostile military. Thus, when the camp moved to its new location along the valley, there were those amongst the women who did the work, that decided it would be easier to throw up a wikiup thingumajiggy rather than unpack everything again. Lazy and idle and feckless of them of course but people are like that and especially after a very worrying afternoon and celebrating victory around the campfires until late. Also, we know, with no reason to doubt it, that Richard Woodenleg and his brother simply slept under the trees and were asleep that way on the Sunday when 7th Cavalry attacked. Most of the tipis were taken down and moved along the river but not all of them were put back up. The Cheyennes had no formal way of monitoring their people's tipi erections and all the Sioux camp police who kept these records were killed by Bloody knife when he he raided the pony herds before Reno halted to fight. This is one of those little questions which can never be properly resolved and must ever more be subject to the product of chaos theory and various guestimates derived from vague probability. We do know that there were an awful lot of tipis and the army managed to count how many after they moved away when Montana column arrived. That is how we also know what the potential dog count was. They ate them as a delicacy, in an inverted snobbery of practical snacking with the meat being easier to prepare than buffalo, horse and deer. Be well - Supper
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 11, 2019 14:21:19 GMT -6
Most of the tipis were taken down and moved along the river but not all of them were put back up. The Cheyennes had no formal way of monitoring their people's tipi erections and all the Sioux camp police who kept these records were killed by Bloody knife when he he raided the pony herds before Reno halted to fight. Wrong again HR, Cheyenne did have camp police, they were called "Warrior Societies." There is also a reason that the Cheyenne were camped at the down stream end of the camp. They were the vanguard in the movement, of all the tribal groups, that entire Summer, this was a sign of respect. The Warrior Societies rotated the responsibility of tribal police and oversight. AZ and I had the opportunity and pleasure to spend the afternoon with the current head of the Dog Soldier Society. His great, great, great grandfather was a former head of the same society, he is also a cousin of the Wooden Leg family. That ancestor I alluded to in the previous sentence was Tall Bull, killed in the battle of Summit Springs(Jully11,1860), by Frank North, founder of the Pawnee Scouts.
The names of the other warrior societies are Fox, Elk, Shield, and Bowstring. These societies were then and are now part of the tribal governance, along with the Council of Forty Four. There are also a Contrary Society and a Women's Society.
As an aside, nobody monitors my erections either.
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Nov 13, 2019 4:02:12 GMT -6
I guess that's the problem with large tipis.
I know there were policing roles assigned to the societies but believe that I am technically correct in regards monitoring activity 'once the fight was on'. They were not stood about ticking boxes once the bullets were flying and guidons waving. Splitting jovial hairs.....
I don't claim to be an expert but have researched the rich and tragic Cheyenne history with it being and becoming ever moreso relevant to their victory and place in its history.
I'm glad that you mentioned Wooden Leg, in the sense of the family. Tradition is an interesting beast of many flavours and although interpretted, I came away from Marquis's work on the Cheyenne with the impression of an ordered and quite practically managed civility which is broadly social, sociable and political. It is inward looking and fiercly proud. Minds and hearts today are not hampered by illiteracy and so a quandry exists to be explained.
One of those who taught Marquis to sign talk, was John Stands in Timber and Richard Wooden Leg was one of the doctors significant informers.
1. Marquis was never aware of the use of fords below Deep Ravine by either cavalry or Cheyennes in 1876 after interviewing dozens of participants.
2. From RW, the Cheyenne camp stood about two miles from the old Garryowen PO, and was opposite medicine Tail Coulee.
First hand Cheyenne history was authored very well by Marquis (others also). It is directly at odds with what you were told and I wonder how to reconcile the disparity of locations.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 14, 2019 11:49:29 GMT -6
HR
I think you need to look at the map in Marquis' book Wooden Lake. It clearly shows Indians camp all the way north and marked by Xs.
His number 11 is closer to Deep Coulee.
He also the Cheyenne Camp north of the drainage on the west side. He labeled it with a 6. That drainage on the west side runs into the LBH just below Deep Ravine. Deep Ravine and Deep Coulee are connected by the western corridor.
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Nov 14, 2019 13:02:12 GMT -6
Hi AZR. He shows two camps. That attacked by Reno and where it then moved down the valley. The legend for his map: 1. Uncpapa camp circle. 2. Blackfeet Sioux camp circle. 3. Minneconjoux camp circle. 4. Arrows All Gone camp circle. 5. Ogallala camp circle. 6. Cheyenne camp circle.
Arrows ——► show Reno troops' advance and retreat. 7. Reno battle line, for a few minutes. 8. Present Garryowen railroad station. 9. Reno entrenchment hill, after retreat across the river. 10. Present Custer monument, in field enclosed by fence. 11. Broad coulee of Medicine Tail creek just across east from Cheyenne camp circle.
The long links show approach of Custer troops, moving northwestward, along a high ridge. Scattered crossmarks, x x x, show where irregular second camps of Indians were placed. Little Bighorn river flowing northwestward. Indians forded river at Medicine Tail coulee and also went along hills from Reno hill, 9, to intercept Custer soldiers.
Here's the map Here's the book to reference online published 1931. Marquis researched between 1926 and 1931. Quote - The Cheyenne location was about two miles north from the present railroad station at Garryowen, Montana. We were near the mouth of a small creek flowing from the southwestward into the river. Across the river east of us and a little upstream from us was a broad coulee, or little valley, having now the name Medicine Tail coulee.
The Uncpapas, at the southern end of the group and most distant from us, put their circle just north east of the present Garryowen station. The other four circles were placed here and there between us and the Uncpapas.Are we certain that R. Wooden Leg was at the battle? John Stands in Timber taught Marquis the sign talk.
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 15, 2019 7:26:02 GMT -6
HR, As to Richard Woodenlegs and John Woodenlegs. www.american-tribes.com/Cheyenne/bio/WoodenLeg.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_WoodenlegsThis from Margot Liberty. "John Woodenlegs, recently Northern Cheyenne tribal president for several terms, headed this team. He was a grandson of the warrior Richard Woodenlegs whose story is told in Marquis book, Wooden legs: A Warrior who Fought Custer. After Marquis died, Marquis’ two daughters gave the pictures that he took between 1922 and 1936 to John Woodenlegs." Also, see if you can locate Onion Creek on the W.L. map, AZ will show you, if you can't. Then locate it on Google. I was at the Garryowen and measured the distances, they worked out. It is certainly obvious that this map is not to scale. Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Nov 20, 2019 6:17:59 GMT -6
The mapping issues are many in repect accuracy relative to technology of the time and purpose (intent). The Marquis maps are reasonably detailed and accurate for someone simply interested in creating a worthwhile record. NPS have them online and they were adapted to publish in 1931. Commercial mapResearchNPS reaech collectionThere are difficulties and contradictions in Marquis's work but it is a broadly excellent expose of Cheyenne life and ways. Hopefully one day, there will be a Cheyenne President. Wooden Leg described the location of his camp and it was opposite the mouth of Deep Coulee. No doubt about it. It then moved downriver after the Custer fight and moved again to avoid Montana Column. I've been discussing Garryowen and the skirmish line elsewhere with AZR in a thread begun with me discussing the ranch which may have been sold now. A lot of the benchland seems to be changing ownership at the moment. Where we were and are at, is the traditional view of skirmishing west of Garryowen along the railway and the modern ideas based in terrain around the Fort Custer Building and Kuhlman and Brininstool's revised ideas of where the companies deployed. I'm a Garryowen believer but realise that visitors cannot be taken in party out onto I-90 to see where the troops and Indians fought. The modern tour is a compromise which entusiasts enjoy and that is obviously good. It isn't commercialized and so its OK. Reno's battalion dismounted near the modern Garryowen and fought west of the buildings. My mind cannot be changed on this because it is what happened. There was a small creek exactly where Wooden Leg described it, opposite Deep Coulee flowing from the valley into the river and it is shown on the 1891/1908 US Geo map by R.B Marshall and that is the best topographical evidence anyone can have. The map predates Marwuis by 30 years. Be well Don't peel..... An idle though. G.A. Custer fought for emancipation. He was an abolisionist who subjugated the North American Indian. So did his colleagues.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 20, 2019 7:10:14 GMT -6
We were near the mouth of a small creek flowing from the southwestward into the river. Across the river east of us and a little upstream from us was a broad coulee, or little valley, having now the name Medicine Tail coulee.
HR
If you read this it is consistent with Onion Creek and it also is absolutely north of MTC. Regardless of scale we can see that two drainages combine to form Onion Creek. As far as MTC he states he they were north of it. Upstream would be would be south. Right?
Regards
BE
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Post by herosrest on Nov 20, 2019 8:04:39 GMT -6
Here's R.B. Marshall's map of 1891, updated after the railway was laid in 1894/1895, and published 1908. Marshall's USGS 1Cardinals are indicated by lines which cross just above the 'ford' legend at the mouth of Medicine Tail and Deep Coulees. Immediately left of the 'ford' legend is a small stream or coulee, flowing from the valley into Little Bighorn river. That is the stream which Richard Woodenleg referred to in identifying the location of his village when Custer and Reno attacked. There is the the mouth of a small creek flowing from the southwestward into the river.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 1, 2022 11:33:06 GMT -6
A think-piece. Acceptance of John Stands in Timber's recollections of family recollections, leverages the premise that family are inherently truthful to one another and should on that basis, be fully accepted despite lack of corroboration and authors interests. Parallel accounts of events must therefore be valid and accepted and must carry more weight than that given to 1956, by virtue of dating from 1926. The Teepee Book half-centennial anniversary pulication includes accounts of the battle given by White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, and Hairy Moccasin, which were interpretted by Thomas H. LaForge. 'The following statements of four Crow scouts and of Thomas H. La Forge, who was enlisted with them, were made especially for The Teepee Book, with the exception of Curley's statement, which was made several years ago. 9He had passed away)' There is also stuff by D.F. Barry: 'Gen. Godfrey, Col. Portello and myself are the only living persons who heard Chief Gall, on the evening of June 24th, 1886, tell the story of the fight. ' The Indians and Captain DeRudio tell us the fight lasted thirty-five minutes. Some writers would have us believe the fight continued all day, when there were thousands of Indians fighting a few hundred.' Note - Page 76 lists the national and local committees charged with undrtaking that anniversary and includes Robert S. Ellison of Casper WY. who went on to aquire a major part of the notes accumulated by Walter M. Camp during studies of the Plains conflict. Barry gained account of the battle from Gall. Thomas LaForge served Gibbon during the campaign and recruited the Crow scouts being married into that tribe en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Leforge The Crow accounts must carry more weight than that of John Stands in Timber, and certainly make considerable sense and teel stuff that some authors, historians and other people, really prefer not to entertain. LaForge stood by and for Mitch Boyer's family after his death fighting with Custer's command, and managed to find out from Cheyennes what happened to his friend. A number of Cheyennes were and married into the Crow tribe settled in Little Bighorn valley. I don't doubt considerable history of the battle was handed down by Cheyennes to the Crows and a good deal of it was written down and published., with their entire permission. There was work by George B. Grinnell, Edward S. Curtis and Thomas B. Marquis. Peter Powell published John Stands in Timber, in 1969. The Journal of Brig. Gen Henry B. Freeman, present in command of Montana Column's 7th Infantry battalion, was published in 1977.
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