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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 7, 2019 12:40:08 GMT -6
Shan, I wonder if all the firing on Luce and Blummer-Ney-Cartwright was directed at Wolftooth, maybe the firing on B-N-C was, but the cartridge finds on the western side Luce ridge, seemed to be directed towards MTC. Was Wolftooth in MTC? [the dark blue dots are army cartridge finds] Yan
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Post by shan on Jul 8, 2019 2:59:01 GMT -6
Yan,
I went and found my copy of JSIT's book and read the relevant passage again, and as of today, I'm not going to stand by my new interpretation of where Wolf Tooth's first siting occurred just because it suits me, because the reality is, that passage is very unclear. In other words, it could have occurred anywhere between Luce and the general area where the museum now stands.
JSIT gives us no names for landscape features, but then why would he, for the names that WE ~ a primarily a white audience, know them by, have been given to them by us? The trouble is, the few landscape features he does mention, " Then this party raced back up the creek again to where they could follow one of the ridges to the top, and when they got there, they saw the saw the last few soldiers going down out of sight towards the river -- Custer's men." could be almost anywhere. " Raced up the creek again," implies that they had already been down it, so which creek is he talking about? Those with better knowledge of the landscape features than me maybe able to pin point it. We know about MTC, but one presumes that was dry and not a creek at the time, the same applies to Deep coulee. We also know that they were at least two or three miles off towards the North East when they were called back, so is the creek off in that direction?
A little further on, JSIT writes, " As the soldiers disappeared, Wolf Tooth's band split up. Some followed the soldiers, and the rest went on around a point { Which point, where?" } to cut them off. They caught up there with some that were still going down, and came around them on both sides. The soldiers started shooting. It was the first skirmish of the battle and it did not last very long."
I suppose you could place this action in the general area of MTC, but if it occurred there, it raise two questions, why is it not mentioned by those Indians that were on the other side of the river? They talk about seeing soldiers coming down towards the river, but make no mention of mounted Indians harassing them, plus, if there was some exchange of fire, then one would have thought that there would have been some finds?
One last thing, thanks for the map, are those red dots evidence of Indian firing, if so, then its very light compared to the army finds.
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 8, 2019 4:34:45 GMT -6
Yes Shan, the red dots are Indian cartidge finds. You are correct that the points of reference could be anywhere, ‘the creek’ could be MTC, but it could also be deep coulee or even the drainages which flow down flats near ford D. Here are a couple of images showing the creeks and also the narrow ravine which could have been used by Custer to reach the crossing point at ford D.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 8, 2019 8:15:36 GMT -6
The John Stands in Timber map can give us some idea of what he is refering to, as that move down off Blummer-Nye-Cartwright into deep coulee and on the Calhoun hill, is quite clear.
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Post by shan on Jul 8, 2019 9:50:45 GMT -6
Yan,
that's a great map and I think it helps clear up most of my problems. It looks as if Wolf Tooth's band engaged with Custer way up, maybe even east of Luce, and then followed them north and east of LSH and then fire at them as they make their way to ford D. Interestingly, the map dosen't seem to indicate that Custer went anywhere near Ford B, but then might be a case of Wolf Tooth's band had moved back into the hills and never saw it. One often reads that Indians didn't tend to talk of things they hadn't seen themselves, although how true that is one often wonders.
Do you know when he made that map and for whom? Its not in the copy of the book I have and its so specific, it looks as if he had made it to clear up some of the same issues I had.
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 9, 2019 4:27:18 GMT -6
That map was actually created on the battlefield itself, drawn by John Stands in Timber under the guidance of his step-grandfather Wolftooth and done without a translator. I don’t know what year this was drawn. The map and a good explanation of it comes from the Michael Donahue book ‘Drawing Battle Lines’. I am not aware of another map Shan; can you please post the one you have up so I can see if I have it in my collection?
Yan
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Post by shan on Jul 9, 2019 7:45:26 GMT -6
Yan,
that's interesting, I have the book you mentioned and went back and read the account which mentions that Wolf Tooth took JSIT around the battlefield as did a few other Cheyenne. all of which gives his map great credence in my view.
As to the map in my copy of Cheyenne Memories, I'm afraid its one of those generic maps you'll find in many books, simple and with very little detail. I'd up load it if I knew how, but its a skill I never learnt I'm afraid.
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 9, 2019 13:32:33 GMT -6
I must admit Shan, the JSIT accounts were a game changer for me and we did a lot of work on that basis on the blue board. One think that we noticed when studying the Indian accounts, was that the Cheyenne’s mention of engaging the soldiers at the river and even crossing over to fight them on the eastern bank. The Sioux accounts on the other hand, mainly say that the soldiers never reached the river at all, and we put this down to the fact that most of the Sioux warriors were off fighting Reno and when they returned, the soldiers had taken back to the high ground and been forced away from the river.
Did you notice how Mike Donahue read from the JSIT accounts about how they said that the final fighting took place on Calhoun hill and not LSH. Now that flies into the face to what most people say about this battle, but if you look at it, it does make sense as any body of soldiers facing unsurmountable odds would naturally try and make it back to their friendly units and moving back south towards Calhoun hill and further to the same ridges they come by, would give them a chance to meet up with Benteen or any others who maybe following their trail.
Yan
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Post by herosrest on Jul 9, 2019 14:56:12 GMT -6
If I may, i'll offer some insight to the maps - there were several. There is that given by Marquis in his book and that held by the NPS and online. There is then a research map (online) bt Charles Kuhlman. There are three, I think, maps by JSiT and there is one by Big Beaver. Donahue of course pulled the multitude of them together. There are many. Kuhlman's work relates well to JSiT's later map although Kuhlman did not place troops as far west as the fords there.
If you want I will pull the maps together into a simple post here. Kuhlman's theory was that Custer hunkered down the five companies at Custer Hill and on BRE until Weir arrived on the heights and then a general movement by Custer's command towards Weir, went wrong on the flats where Company E fought below Custer Hill, and the command was wiped out in serious fighting all along the ridge as they were checked on Calhoun Hill.
Here is the problem with this theory, to offer a balanced knowledge. Whilst no-one really knows what happened in 1876, it is afact that 7th Cavalry marched the route in 1926, with thousands of Indians present and fighting a mock battle. Marquis had trusted evidence of what happened from Cheyennes and Sioux who fought and it is in the Wooden Leg book. Thirty years later, JSiT was telling Rickey that 7th Cavalry did in 1876, what happened in 1926. That is not what Ceyenne and Sioux told Marquis twenty years before but they were dead when JSiT was recounting history.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 9, 2019 17:10:49 GMT -6
E.S. Godfrey at the head of 7th Cavalry - Little Bighorn 1926 anniversary. 7th Cavalry riding from Cemetery ridge onto the battlefield below Custer's Hill watched by the crowds of 50,000. There is a video of this march. Here's an interesting thing - Find any indication in history or novel, of lower ford theory, before 1926. Marquis and his Cheyenne informants knew nothing about cavalry going to the Gibbon or Sioux Fords known as D fords now.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 9, 2019 17:35:34 GMT -6
I link to a lovely map of the battle which resides with the Buell-Brien Papers in Nasheville. This map came from the collection of Gen. George Buell, a US Army topographical engineer who was assigned to the trans-Mississippi West after the Civil War and participated in the Indian wars against the Great Plains tribes. He established and garrisoned Fort Custer from June 1877 until March 1879.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2023 10:37:20 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2023 11:37:03 GMT -6
I'm going to give a tactical analysis of the initial cartridge deposit line - that just north of the pool on the dammed coulee. The 'W' line which sits on a miltary crest facing to south and SSE (MTC). That position is on a line of around 350 yards leaving simple maths with 5 and 9 to indicate numbers of shooters - as arounf 38 or 70 men. The cartridge distribution to the east near '3300', is the horse holders or the first fight by a small unit in advance - Let's say the Company F detail. Either, the scouting detail came into contact with hostile BH's and were supported; or Custer deployed a larger detail onto that terrain to stand his right flank and rear while figuring out how to get into the valley. &th Cavalry right wing of five companies were trying to get into the valley, and join the attack open by Reno's battalion. We could argur whether that is done quickly or after a break to cook up pork & beans whilst the horses are watered and straw cut for the evening bivouac although I cannot see such being fruitful. Two reasonable scenarios which may mesh or stand alone, leaving a detachment of the right wing on what is given in the topic as Luce's ridge. There are some photos from the 1940's taken by Luce and Condon who looked over that terrain for relics - and by God they found them. Do we know anything of Custer's ways and tactics..... well, yes we do. We certainly do from the reports and writing about the fighting in 1873 where Custer detached Lt. Braden with twenty men to take and hold dominating high ground overlooking his regiment on the Yellowstone near Ft. Pease and the mouth of Tullock Ck. and the Bighorn. "0 men arrived in the nick of time to stand off ten times their number of very aggressive Hunkpapa Sioux after blood and scalps. I believe that I have offered a reasonable scenario. Troops onto that terrain intially would NOT be advertising themselves until confirming that no hostile force sat north, east or to the west. In skirmish, the troops do not deploy to the highest points of terrain but occupy the military crest. linkFiguring out fields of fire from the known artifact find locations - will indicate where to search for the bullets propelled down 1873 Model Springfield Carbine barrels at around 1050 fpsfrom a 22-inch barrel. U.S. ordnance department tests reported that "A practiced person can fire the arm from 12 to 13 times per minute, loading from the cartridge-box with a maximum 25 shots per minute possible. The rounds fired were aimed and those on the south flank of the position were shot to the south and southeast. Get your metal detectors out. Who were the soldiers shooting at? Well, read nelson A. Miles notes on his 1878 investigation of the battle - this will assist tremendously in figuring olecranon from coccyx. I can link Lt. Braden's personal account of the 1873 fight, together with Custer's report of the fighting and various other ANJ articles, if you wish. He took and held high ground dominating flank and rear while he manouvered. Anyone would quite easily think he was an experienced and drilled US Army battlefield commander but history suggests otherwise. Joe Blummer discovered seventenn cartridges along those ridges (somewhere. Luce's first discovery found fifteen firing positions indicated by cluster's of three expened shells at distances I don't remeber at this time but known about in NPS files from the early 1940's and probably 1941, when he first called for funding an archaeologist on the ground. So.... by a stretch farther than NX-01's Warp 5 jump, did Custer emulate his previous fights by flanking a detachment onto Luce Ridge while his companies halted and closed up during the 'Martin Episode', which despatched orders for Benteen to get the lead out and support Reno in the valley ASAp and certainly as Archer and Kirk did countless times later in the future? I say he did. I say further that that unit redeployed - extended west, before mounting and moving towards Calhoun Hill when so ordered by signal or messenger. We can move right along now to the cluster shambles of cartridges along the eastern flank of Nye-Cartwright Ridge, where either something entirely strange took place, or an immense hoax occured quite some time time after the battle. Open mind only can be applied to these relic finds since they have not been scientifically assessed. Anyone interested in owning G.A. Custer's sword - linkHow's I do? Oooh look.......... A sprinkle here, a sprinkle th'ar and Bob's yer aunties octopus.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2023 17:56:02 GMT -6
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